Scrum Facilitators Community podcast
We promote and support the growth of professional Scrum. Scrum Facilitators helps the professional Scrum facilitators in their journey. In the podcast we discuss ideas, lessons and tools that can be helpful for Scrum Masters, Product Owners and Developers. Bringing forward ideas by interesting people from the community and our larger network.
Scrum Facilitators Community podcast
Fostering team growth and dealing with complexity through professional coaching - Maaike Klasen
In this episode, Sjoerd Kranendonk and Maaike Klasen delve into the nuanced world of coaching within agile frameworks. They discuss the importance of contracting for coaching sessions and the distinctions between general coaching, professional coaching, and Agile coaching. Emphasizing the emotional dynamics within teams, they explore the complexities and approaches to both individual and team coaching, highlighting the significance of shared goals in team coaching versus the personalized focus of individual coaching.
The conversation underscores the challenges in balancing individual and team dynamics, with Maaike and Sjoerd reflecting on the importance of curiosity, openness, and courage in fostering effective team interactions. They stress the need for team coaches to trust the natural growth and evolution of teams, while also being ready to intervene when necessary with appropriate facilitation tools. The discussion also touches on the importance of every team member's voice and the role of the coach in ensuring that quieter voices are heard and valued.
In conclusion, the episode emphasizes the critical role of ownership and self-organization in agile teams. Sjoerd and Maaike advocate for a pull-based approach where teams are encouraged to take ownership of their development and improvement processes, rather than having solutions imposed upon them. This fosters a more adaptable and resilient team dynamic, essential for thriving in fast-changing environments. The episode wraps up with a reminder of the collaborative nature of agile work and the importance of communication and interaction between team members and product owners.
Find and Connect with Maaike:
- Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maaike-klasen-acc-coach-053798a6/
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/maaike.klasen
- Previous SF Podcast episode: Professional Coaching in Scrum
Maaike's book tips (sorry, dutch books!):
- Tricky Tijden - Jitske Kramer (Jitske Linkedin)
- Agile Teams: Hoe dan?! - Francisca Dalstra (Francisca Linkedin)
Are you working with Scrum/Agile and have similar stories and tips to share? Or do you know someone that you want to voluntell to be a guest? Reach out! podcast@scrumfacilitators.com
Also check out our website, LinkedIn and Meetup
00:00:06 Steve Trapps
Thank you for listening to the scrum Facilitators Community podcast. The place for real conversations around Scrum. Do you have a story to share in this podcast? Get in touch with us at podcast at scrumfacilitators.com.
00:00:23 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Hey, everyone, welcome to the scrum Facilitators Community podcast.
00:00:26 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Host, I'm your host Sjoerd Kranendonk and with me today is Maaike Klasen. She is a professional coach who works in the Netherlands, has a broad experience in team coaching and individual coaching, and today we want to explore a bit more about how knowledge of professional coaching can help Scrum Masters.
00:00:47 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Agile coaches in organizations so welcome. Maaike, can you give us a bit more detail about yourself?
00:00:51 Maaike Klasen
Thank.
00:00:52 Maaike Klasen
Very much.
00:00:56 Maaike Klasen
So Maaike Klasen well, originally I'm actually an educational psychologist and a play therapist. So I come from the well working with children actually. But in the past 12 years, I've changed my career and working with adults in the corporate environment.
00:01:15
Hmm.
00:01:16 Maaike Klasen
Also agile and also worked as a scrum Master Agile coach.
00:01:22
Yeah.
00:01:23 Maaike Klasen
That's.
00:01:23 Maaike Klasen
It.
00:01:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Who and just one additional question on this point.
00:01:30 Sjoerd Kranendonk
What makes coaching for you such a interesting or rewarding job?
00:01:37 Maaike Klasen
Wow, I love that question.
00:01:40 Maaike Klasen
That's the purpose, right? Yes, for me.
00:01:43 Maaike Klasen
It is just.
00:01:46 Maaike Klasen
It it it really gives me great energy. I feel I'm on top of the world when people are learning and developing and getting the best out of themselves and at first, and if I can play a role.
00:02:05 Maaike Klasen
That process, if I can just support that process, I yeah, it just gives me a lot.
00:02:11 Maaike Klasen
Of energy.
00:02:15 Maaike Klasen
And yeah, before I was more individually oriented. So yeah, and coaching one on ones.
00:02:23 Maaike Klasen
And I think over the past, you know, five years in my.
00:02:27 Maaike Klasen
Wrote of being a scrum master I I felt.
00:02:32 Maaike Klasen
It's all about the group, it's about how we interact with each other.
00:02:39 Maaike Klasen
I I struggle a little bit with the.
00:02:43 Maaike Klasen
The like blaming each other or like finger pointing. I felt like, you know, it's it's about the interaction. It's about how one person reacts to the other and how you can collaborate to make it work.
00:02:45
Mm-hmm.
00:02:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes.
00:02:58 Maaike Klasen
And that's why I'm passionate to to help teams in that.
00:03:02 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Cool. Well, you already mentioned a pitfall for teams, right? Blame culture. Other stuff. But let's return to the basics a bit. Yeah, I know that we discussed off the podcast a bit about two types of coaching and I think this is a.
00:03:10
Yeah.
00:03:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk
A good starting point. So can you explain these two types of coaching you were talking about?
00:03:28 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:03:30 Maaike Klasen
So let's just say we're sitting at the table and I'm a scrum master for example. Or a coach, or I'm there in the role to assist and there is a team member and it's just struggling with the software program. It doesn't work or.
00:03:49 Maaike Klasen
Doesn't he doesn't know how to navigate, so he's asking. Maaike, please come. Can you help me in this? I need some coaching. I need some help.
00:04:03 Maaike Klasen
OK, so there are two ways of responding to that in broad lines, there are different ways, but let's say 2 main options. I can sit next to the person and I can say, OK, of course I can help you. I know how this program works. You know, maybe I don't know everything yet, but I can help you and I start to navigate through the software program.
00:04:23 Maaike Klasen
And he's happy. He he cannot work with it.
00:04:29 Maaike Klasen
That's a way of well, it's maybe a bit of teaching and and mentoring a little bit of coaching because you do partner and you do sit next to the other person.
00:04:42 Maaike Klasen
Professional coaching.
00:04:43
MHM.
00:04:44 Maaike Klasen
It's about.
00:04:46 Maaike Klasen
Hey.
00:04:47 Maaike Klasen
What's going on?
00:04:50 Maaike Klasen
What's what's the need to for you to to to learn this program? Why is it important for you to learn this program? What? What is it going to bring you? It's about more taking the other person into a dreaming state.
00:05:08 Maaike Klasen
It's a bit of a fluffy.
00:05:10 Maaike Klasen
Word. But it's like what's out there for you to explore? How are you going to grow?
00:05:16 Maaike Klasen
It's like finding that inner yeah, inner peace in yourself and then on how to apply. So it's about feeling it's about.
00:05:22 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes.
00:05:28 Maaike Klasen
What do you want? It's about thinking and it's about action because a lot of people do feel it's too fluffy, but it is really about action. At the end of the day.
00:05:36
Hmm.
00:05:38 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah.
00:05:39 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:05:40 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah. So it's basically finding out not just.
00:05:44 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Like, no, it's basically if I get it right, not just helping the person with the question they come with, but finding out what's really the the, the the real struggle there or what they would really.
00:06:01 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Benefit most of getting help with not just figuring out the program, but maybe like how this program is part of a new.
00:06:09 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Part of their job description, and they're struggling with the program because secretly they are subconsciously they don't like this new part of their job, so they don't even want to learn it, maybe or whatever. And that's what you're there to find out then, right? As a professional coach?
00:06:24 Maaike Klasen
Yes, definitely. And of course learning the program is important. Look, only I'd want to differentiate what coaching is and what teaching or mentoring is. So I'm just trying to to yeah, to separate them. Yeah.
00:06:38
Exactly.
00:06:41 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And this is important, I think, because uhm.
00:06:44 Sjoerd Kranendonk
I see in my daily encounters with Scrum Masters potential Scrum Masters in our trainings and other places, a lot of fluidity and sometimes fluidity is good because we need to be flexible in our approach. Look at what a team needs when you're scrum master.
00:07:04 Sjoerd Kranendonk
How you can best support them, because if you always take a pure coaching stance, for instance, this might also not be helpful all the time, especially if there's.
00:07:12
MHM.
00:07:15 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Something that's blocking the team and they are not able to fix it themselves at that point. Then they cannot take the time to figure out how to fix it, because coaching also takes time. Then sometimes you need to just fix it, right? So then you're a teacher or you just.
00:07:34 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Maybe more even a manager kind of stands as a scrum master. You fix the part of the system so the team can work continue their work.
00:07:43 Sjoerd Kranendonk
But for a lot of people, I see that by taking this stance that the fixer the helper, the maybe the teacher showing them Oh well, in another team we did it this way, so you can also do it this way. Takes away a part of the learning of the team, of course, and that's why I think it's important.
00:07:59 Maaike Klasen
Hmm.
00:08:00 Sjoerd Kranendonk
To make this.
00:08:00 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Distinction that you just put.
00:08:03 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, I I think that the moment a question comes towards you.
00:08:10 Maaike Klasen
It's so from the perspective of self organization and growing as a team and giving the team also the space to grow and as a as a facilitator as a scrum master. If the question comes to you, just think about, OK?
00:08:30 Maaike Klasen
What role am I going to play?
00:08:31 Maaike Klasen
Am I going?
00:08:32 Maaike Klasen
To fix this, or am I going to teach them how to fix it themselves? And in the last option, there's a lot of coaching skills involved.
00:08:42 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes, yes.
00:08:45 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And that's I think that's that's an interesting thing and.
00:08:49 Sjoerd Kranendonk
You explained in your introduction that you have some experience as a one-on-one coach, individual coach and also as a team coach. What in your opinion, is the main difference to look out for when you're working?
00:09:04 Sjoerd Kranendonk
On a team level, because I also see a lot of Scrum master still very much relying on one on ones with the team like.
00:09:12 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Trying to be like the coach or the motivator, or sometimes even the collector of individual grievances, and then put that together in a retro or whatever.
00:09:22 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:09:23 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:09:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk
But I feel that team coaching should not be that per se. So can you help us there?
00:09:30 Maaike Klasen
Hmm.
00:09:32 Maaike Klasen
Well, it makes me curious about what makes you say it shouldn't be like that.
00:09:39 Sjoerd Kranendonk
UM, because what I just described is mostly, uhm, someone collecting individual opinions, filtering them.
00:09:50 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Through their own opinion and then projecting them back to the team. And I've been there myself, I've done that so.
00:09:54 Maaike Klasen
Hmm.
00:09:58 Maaike Klasen
And then then what happens really?
00:10:00 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Well, I think when I reflect on those experiences myself, I think the.
00:10:07 Sjoerd Kranendonk
As in the previous example, you take away a part of the, UM, autonomy of the team, and part of the opportunity for the team to learn and grow what they.
00:10:19 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Want how they want to collaborate? How the team works and how they can become better in self organizing as you mentioned and.
00:10:31 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Figuring out what they want and needs to improve, etc.
00:10:35 Maaike Klasen
Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I hear in this case is, is, is how you think of yourself.
00:10:43
Hmm.
00:10:44 Maaike Klasen
So if you would take a picture of yourself.
00:10:47
Hmm.
00:10:48 Maaike Klasen
In the team.
00:10:51 Maaike Klasen
Where do you stand? Do you stand in the middle? Do you stand at the side? Do you go in between people? Do you move a lot? Do you not?
00:11:00 Maaike Klasen
Move a lot.
00:11:02 Maaike Klasen
So how do you look at yourself positioned in the teams system? I call it a system because it is a system. It's all.
00:11:07
Yes.
00:11:10 Maaike Klasen
So people were first before computers, but computers have systems and we as humans also have our human systems. So we interact. Yeah, we interact.
00:11:20 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Definitely.
00:11:24 Maaike Klasen
And.
00:11:26 Maaike Klasen
We both create the groups feel we both we all create what's happening in that group, including you as a scrum master because you're part of that system. But how do you position yourself?
00:11:30
MHM.
00:11:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah.
00:11:36
M.
00:11:39 Maaike Klasen
So.
00:11:40 Maaike Klasen
In team coaching, we say we your your client, your team or your your coaching client is your whole team. So it's not individual individual individual.
00:11:53 Maaike Klasen
It's it's the group and the group holds their entity and it's almost like a third entity. So it's you, the coach, it's the group and it's the third entity and the third entity is characterized by the emotional field. So what's happening in the interactions? How do people feel?
00:12:14 Maaike Klasen
Think and act.
00:12:18 Maaike Klasen
And that's what you're reading, and that's what you're working with. And that's also where your interventions go. So they are not about individual behaviors, it's about group behavior, what's happening in the dynamics, in the interaction.
00:12:32 Sjoerd Kranendonk
MHM.
00:12:34 Maaike Klasen
So.
00:12:36 Maaike Klasen
In your situation, in your case, what you were explaining about seeing Scrum Masters, having a lot of one on ones.
00:12:42
M.
00:12:43 Maaike Klasen
My my experience, and I think also my opinion now and it's shared in my field.
00:12:50 Maaike Klasen
As well that.
00:12:51
But.
00:12:52 Maaike Klasen
You would make it a bit more complicated for yourself because you're part of coaching is contracting and contracting is making the arrangements about the conditions of the coaching. So what's the goal? How how often are we going to come together? How do we hold confidentiality?
00:12:59 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes.
00:13:12 Maaike Klasen
Yeah. If you go to one-on-one, you hold confidentiality for all the one on ones that you that you're doing, how are you going to bring that back to the group if you hold confidentiality for all these people, you you can't, it's almost impossible. Well, it is possible, but.
00:13:30 Maaike Klasen
You're making it very complicated if you just bring it all back to the group and you have one.
00:13:32 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes.
00:13:35 Maaike Klasen
Contract with the group.
00:13:38 Maaike Klasen
You have way more opportunity to to to guide and coach the group as a whole and to build their their their self organization actually so their their own growth, yeah.
00:13:51 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah, exactly.
00:13:53 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Exactly. And I think this is one of the core aspects of scrum and Agile teams is.
00:13:59 Sjoerd Kranendonk
This.
00:14:00 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Enabling the team to be self organising, uhm, and taking ownership as a team of that.
00:14:08 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, ownership. Yeah.
00:14:09 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah.
00:14:10
Yeah.
00:14:13 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And The thing is.
00:14:16 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Sometimes I think we are too.
00:14:22 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Easily scared off and maybe a scrum masters or coach is not courageous enough, which is important. Scrum value of course to make this step because as a.
00:14:27
Hmm.
00:14:35 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Especially if you're not that experienced yet or you've had bad experiences in the past.
00:14:41 Sjoerd Kranendonk
As a professional, it can be really scary to have group conversations about difficult.
00:14:49 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Subjects about different difficult topics about stuff that is not going well or.
00:14:57 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Collaboration that is going.
00:14:59 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Badly, or mistakes being made that had certain consequences for the group or for people in the group or for your stakeholders and your users. And then it's it's.
00:15:09 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:15:13 Sjoerd Kranendonk
I think it's.
00:15:14 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Human to think ohh this is difficult. Let's first have individual conversations because that feels safer, right?
00:15:22 Maaike Klasen
Very, very normal, yeah.
00:15:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And I think that that's where we are Scrum masters as your coaches, whatever your role is in relation to a team that.
00:15:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk
UM.
00:15:35 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Should be self organizing or for whatever reason or wants to be self organizing or is on that path to really.
00:15:42 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:15:44 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Be courageous and.
00:15:47 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Take it to the.
00:15:47 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Team.
00:15:48 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:15:51 Maaike Klasen
Well, I'm very happy that you bring that in, that it's all it's it's about.
00:15:59 Maaike Klasen
Going over an edge going.
00:16:02 Maaike Klasen
A certain emotional field.
00:16:05 Maaike Klasen
Of fear and yeah.
00:16:05 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah. And and.
00:16:09 Sjoerd Kranendonk
I think we need to recognize it.
00:16:10 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Because.
00:16:10 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah, it's very easy to say. Take it to the team. We say it in all our trainings all the time when we're doing master training.
00:16:18
Yeah.
00:16:19 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And the reason we hammer on it is because it's scary. It can be complicated. It can be also for the team. Very scary because they may be not used to talking about this stuff in the.
00:16:26 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:16:29 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:16:30 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Team.
00:16:31 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah, because they're used to having one on ones with the manager about their development. How things are going, how the team is going, and then the manager.
00:16:38 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Besides, Oh well, the morale is low. Here's some budget for team outing, by the way. I already booked the card lane, and you're going there next week. Yeah, all right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:44 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:16:47 Maaike Klasen
Which is also nice.
00:16:53 Sjoerd Kranendonk
That's the thing.
00:16:53 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, that's that's very interesting actually.
00:16:57 Maaike Klasen
I'm I'm thinking about how I how I manage that.
00:17:03 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah. You talked about the emotional field and maybe you can explain a bit about for as an example if you.
00:17:04 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:17:05 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:17:11 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Have this emotional field of a team that is maybe has experienced some bad things in the past and therefore.
00:17:21 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Finds it hard to have that open conversation about stuff. So how do you?
00:17:27 Sjoerd Kranendonk
How do you not throw them in the?
00:17:29 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Deep.
00:17:30 Maaike Klasen
Ah.
00:17:30 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And give them the feeling that they will drown, right?
00:17:32 Maaike Klasen
Sure, Luke coaching is all about creating safety.
00:17:37
Hmm.
00:17:42 Maaike Klasen
And how do you do that? It really depends on the hotness of the situation. So I think it is important to.
00:17:52 Maaike Klasen
Have some kind?
00:17:53 Maaike Klasen
Of.
00:17:55 Maaike Klasen
Instrument for yourself on on how to determine how hot is this topic, how, how. And sometimes I'm also making mistakes, you know. I didn't think it was that hot or that actually often happens.
00:18:12 Sjoerd Kranendonk
You're thinking you're shining a light and the team reacts as if you threw a hand grenade.
00:18:13 Maaike Klasen
But you just.
00:18:16
Yeah.
00:18:17 Maaike Klasen
Absolutely. Or it comes back to me and like it's it's. Yeah, it's a it's a roller coaster. Sometimes it is, but.
00:18:25 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes.
00:18:26 Maaike Klasen
As long as you are aware that you hold the role of creating safety confidentiality, but safety also has to do with setting the stage. So what do we expect from each other? How do we want to interact if we have this discuss?
00:18:32
Hmm.
00:18:35 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes.
00:18:47
Put.
00:18:47
Yeah.
00:18:47 Maaike Klasen
The topic in front, so this is what we're going to discuss. This is what we have figured out. For example, there's a merger, 2 teams need to merge, OK? We don't really feel like one team. How are we becoming one team, we, we we don't understand each other yet that can be the topic of the discussion.
00:19:02
MHM.
00:19:06
Yeah.
00:19:07 Maaike Klasen
But then how do you want to interact at before you start talking about it? You wanna talk with respect? You wanna talk with openness? Courage. I don't know. It can be the scrum values. It can be other values. And most importantly is.
00:19:19
Right.
00:19:24 Maaike Klasen
Just dive into them. So don't just draw them on the board.
00:19:30 Maaike Klasen
As a word. OK, openness. It's a great word. What does it mean? Openness? How does that look like when?
00:19:36 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah. Can you give an example right?
00:19:37 Maaike Klasen
Do you feel safe?
00:19:39 Maaike Klasen
Sorry.
00:19:40 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Ask people to give examples.
00:19:42
Yeah.
00:19:42 Maaike Klasen
Absolutely. How? What do you need as a person, really. Like, what do you need to feel safe and listen to each other? And then most of the times you've set the stage to to, to dive into the topic. How do we become one team?
00:19:56 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah. And basically this comes back again to the importance of contracting, right, because what you've been describing is actually contracting for the session.
00:19:57 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:20:05 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, yeah. You have different levels. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
00:20:07 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Exactly so.
00:20:11 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Cool.
00:20:13 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:20:14 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And.
00:20:16 Sjoerd Kranendonk
So we now have established different approaches to coaching and making air quotes, which you won't see.
00:20:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk
On the podcast, but.
00:20:27 Maaike Klasen
In brackets.
00:20:27 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah. And the difference between like, general coaching, like what coaching means in the term Agile coaching for instance, it's more than.
00:20:35 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:20:36 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And then pure coaching and you use the term professional coaching. I really like that.
00:20:43 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And then we went into the difference between maybe individual coaching and team coaching, although I don't think we really.
00:20:52 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Have grasped that.
00:20:55 Sjoerd Kranendonk
The essence of that difference yet, OK, we talked about it already about the emotional field of a group or a team.
00:21:06 Sjoerd Kranendonk
But.
00:21:07 Sjoerd Kranendonk
What is the key difference between coaching an individual and coaching A-Team? So so where? Yeah.
00:21:14 Maaike Klasen
The key difference? Yeah, the key difference. Maybe I did say it, but the key difference is that with the one-on-one coaching, you are of course in space. You and one person and and and the coach and you're coaching that individuals process.
00:21:29
Hmm.
00:21:34
Hmm.
00:21:35 Maaike Klasen
Roads to to their goals, to their individual goals.
00:21:39
Yeah.
00:21:40 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah.
00:21:43 Maaike Klasen
In team coaching, there's a team A-Team goal so and well, maybe that's.
00:21:48
It.
00:21:51 Maaike Klasen
What I often see in scrum, for example, is that there are look at that, look at the sprinkle.
00:21:57 Maaike Klasen
Hmm.
00:21:58 Maaike Klasen
It's it I. Well, I have hardly seen teams having one spring goal at the end of the Sprint. There are multiple goals so.
00:22:09 Maaike Klasen
As a group, you are working on multiple goals.
00:22:13 Maaike Klasen
So that means that you are.
00:22:16 Maaike Klasen
You have to split your time on and you have to change your focus on different topics. Different. Yeah. Different goals to achieve.
00:22:29 Maaike Klasen
I feel that's that's almost the.
00:22:33 Maaike Klasen
The essence of team coaching to have one shared goal and to have all the focus on that.
00:22:38 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah.
00:22:42 Maaike Klasen
I am.
00:22:45 Maaike Klasen
I'm not saying a Sprint needs to have only one goal. Well, I'm not going to to really like.
00:22:52 Maaike Klasen
Be very determined about that, but I'm just saying this is the essence of team coaching. You are sharing one goal together.
00:23:00 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah. And as a coach, your main objective is helping the team figuring out what is our one current goal that we want to address as a team and then.
00:23:01
Yeah.
00:23:09 Maaike Klasen
Sure. Yeah, yeah.
00:23:12 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Helping them figure out ways to do that right.
00:23:18 Maaike Klasen
Yeah. And also understanding why they are doing it.
00:23:25 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes, very important.
00:23:27 Maaike Klasen
Very important the the value of it. What's the?
00:23:30 Maaike Klasen
Value of doing this.
00:23:30
Yeah.
00:23:31 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Just like with the Sprint goal, basically, yeah.
00:23:33 Maaike Klasen
Absolutely. So that's in, in, in an agile environment really customer focused. So really like for, for who and what's the value of doing it.
00:23:34 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:47 Maaike Klasen
And the fun thing is, is that when you really connect to that, when a group really.
00:23:51 Maaike Klasen
Connects to the value.
00:23:53
Hmm.
00:23:53 Maaike Klasen
It's going, the energy is going to blow like.
00:23:56
Yeah.
00:23:57 Maaike Klasen
And that can go 2 directions that can go towards like great team flow, great, great communication, great atmosphere. It can also go to difficult interactions because you're so passionate. You all wanna achieve.
00:24:14 Maaike Klasen
You've but you haven't really aligned as a group yet. You have not learned enough yet about each other. How do we really collaborate? And you get miscommunication, you get blaming, you get maybe ego comes into play, you know, and and that's where the team coach.
00:24:23
MHM.
00:24:26 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Definitely.
00:24:35 Maaike Klasen
Comes in. How do we go back to alignments? There's another word in team coaching. How do we align? What do we need from each other? What do we need to learn from each other? So curiosity is a big thing. I think if Scrum adds 1 value it should be curiosity.
00:24:46
Yeah.
00:24:52 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Nice.
00:24:53 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And I think curiosity is basically a combination of the scrum values, openness and courage, because I think it takes courage to be curious, to ask questions when sometimes you have had the experience of stuff blowing up in your face. You just said yourself, you also have.
00:25:11
Yeah.
00:25:13 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Experience this right you ask the question and then you get a response like oh wow, this was the most painful question for this team and.
00:25:20 Sjoerd Kranendonk
I just asked.
00:25:22 Sjoerd Kranendonk
About something really shallow in my opinion, and you have to really just you.
00:25:27 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah.
00:25:27 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Have the courage to ask questions and.
00:25:31 Sjoerd Kranendonk
To enable openness, and that's basically curiosity, I think, and to learn, so it is in there, but I get why you want to put it separate. I'm just trying to tie it back to what is there.
00:25:36
Yeah.
00:25:44 Maaike Klasen
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. I like that too. Yeah.
00:25:46 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And.
00:25:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk
I think it's a really interesting.
00:25:53 Sjoerd Kranendonk
To.
00:25:55 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Be able to hold the duality as a coach in your mind and it's on so many levels, but the one I'm talking about now is like.
00:26:06 Sjoerd Kranendonk
The people in the team are individuals. They have individual preferences, individual ways of working, individual personalities, individual goals, even, and how to bring that together.
00:26:16 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:26:19 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Not by doing the work as a scrum master or coach. Filtering that in a big Excel and then seeing what the common themes are and then putting that back.
00:26:28 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Right.
00:26:29 Maaike Klasen
It's OK. It's OK. It's a. It's also a way of creating clarity, you know? Yeah.
00:26:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes, but really helping the team figure out. OK, if we know more about each other about our preferences, maybe we can collaborate better if that's the thing they want to work on, right? Or maybe that needs to be fixed before they can work on finding the shared goal. Or maybe we need to look at.
00:26:40
Yeah.
00:26:51 Sjoerd Kranendonk
OK, we have this shared goal as a team in this organization. This value we are trying to add.
00:26:57 Sjoerd Kranendonk
But how does that relate to our individual value systems and how can we better understand each other but also know how to?
00:27:07 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Make everybody's strengths really add to the project we're doing right now so it can be all these different things, but it's the duality about making sure individuals are thriving, basically.
00:27:13 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:27:20 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Uh.
00:27:22 Sjoerd Kranendonk
In the system of the.
00:27:23 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Team.
00:27:24 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:27:25 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And that's that's really difficult I think to really.
00:27:28 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Balance those in in, in that sense, I'm not saying individual coaching is easier, but I think it is. I am.
00:27:34 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, no, great, great input. Well, firstly, it is a podcast. You didn't see me smiling, but I love. I was just smiling from ear to ear when you said Holt. The duality for me, that's one phrase I use.
00:27:45 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes.
00:27:48 Maaike Klasen
A lot. So.
00:27:49 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Oh, nice.
00:27:49 Maaike Klasen
All the duality. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The in coaching you have to deal with dualities.
00:27:54 Maaike Klasen
All the time.
00:27:54 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes.
00:27:55 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, and that is one skill as a coach to halt the duality.
00:28:00 Maaike Klasen
UM, and you say if it will be hard to to to hold it when it comes to individual?
00:28:11 Maaike Klasen
Meaning or or individual goals or drives or skills, even in in the context.
00:28:19 Maaike Klasen
Of a group.
00:28:21 Maaike Klasen
UM.
00:28:23 Maaike Klasen
I have an idea on why that is difficult, but do you have an idea?
00:28:30 Sjoerd Kranendonk
UM.
00:28:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk
I do.
00:28:35 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And I'm I think this is there are many, many reasons. So we probably have different ones. But for me the 1st that pops up is that if you're in a group.
00:28:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Due to individual differences, there's always people that are louder, grab more attention, and if you are too, are not aware of that. That fact and counterbalancing that as a culture citator then the their individual goals, motives and opinions.
00:29:08 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Anchor like the drives the the opinion and the goal of the team. So then it becomes unbalanced and I think that is also.
00:29:14 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:29:17
Hmm.
00:29:19 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Maybe a reason why some Scrum masters prefer or fall back on individual conversations a lot because they are afraid of not hearing the less.
00:29:34 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Loud voices.
00:29:35 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, voices.
00:29:36 Sjoerd Kranendonk
That would be for me the.
00:29:38 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like the word voices in a group. We also in in team coaching terminology, we talk, we talk about voices and that can be literally your voice, but it can also be your opinion, but it can also be the voice of the system. So when you work.
00:29:47
Hmm.
00:29:58 Maaike Klasen
From a system point of view, from a team coach point of view.
00:30:02 Maaike Klasen
There's not really a right and a wrong, so that's also how you hold duality. There's not really a right and a wrong. There's not really a true and and a false. You know it's. It's the different voices that make this group and every voice.
00:30:20 Maaike Klasen
Is, is, is right partially they say so every voice is right partially. You all share a piece of the pie. The quiet voice is also communicate. They do communicate by being quiet and that's OK. So it's also really about.
00:30:34
Hmm.
00:30:38 Maaike Klasen
Holding a space that it's OK.
00:30:42 Maaike Klasen
And.
00:30:43 Maaike Klasen
And if it's not, the group will.
00:30:46 Maaike Klasen
So that is not through teen toxins or.
00:30:47
Hmm.
00:30:50 Maaike Klasen
Through feedback or through.
00:30:54 Maaike Klasen
You will so team coaching is also about really trusting your group, trusting that something will emerge. This group is every group is moving. We are all living organisms. We are moving. We are an ecosystem.
00:31:11 Maaike Klasen
Them and as a coach, you have to trust it is growing, it is going somewhere. Yes, it can get stuck and then you can intervene with very nice back form. I was said in.
00:31:25 Maaike Klasen
English.
00:31:25 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Facilitation tools, I think, yeah.
00:31:27 Maaike Klasen
You have tools? Yes, there are plenty of tools you can find them online. You can do team coaching, training to to learn about these.
00:31:35 Maaike Klasen
Course. So yes, of course you intervene when things get stuck, but the team you need to talk with your team about that you cannot be a surgeon or a surgeon, right? Word like an. Yeah, yeah.
00:31:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk
The drill Sergeant like you should speak now. Now you should speak, yes.
00:31:53 Maaike Klasen
That's why.
00:31:54 Sjoerd Kranendonk
You're quiet.
00:31:55 Maaike Klasen
Exactly. You don't have to push and stare. Really, you. And also you cannot be like a doctor like you cannot.
00:32:08 Maaike Klasen
Really, you can. You can have an hypothesis about your team, but you cannot really have a diagnosis. The team knows itself itself, and you as a coach play a role to to create awareness to, to build upon that awareness. And you do that through techniques and tools. So there's.
00:32:23 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Hmm.
00:32:28 Maaike Klasen
Absolutely. Professionalism about about it around it.
00:32:32
But.
00:32:34 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, I think in practice, I feel it's about really acknowledging that this is these are the skills of a of a coach and it can bring a lot of value because then the team can achieve their goals easily or they can create value because they know why they're doing it, yeah.
00:32:52 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And it comes back, I think again in that ownership, right, we want to enable the team to take ownership of their own journey, if you will, which is a bit of a too fluffy term for me sometimes, but take ownership of their own development. I think that's more what we're talking about, right.
00:33:00
Yeah.
00:33:07 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:33:08 Maaike Klasen
Journey for.
00:33:09
Fluffy.
00:33:10 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I find it fluffy because what we mean, we mean development in this case or take ownership of their work or whatever, you know, of of their work environment that we can make it more concrete. And this is one of things I think we need to do as coaches also to help the team get clarity on what it is they need and want.
00:33:11 Maaike Klasen
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:19
Yeah.
00:33:30 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And then supports their development in that area basically.
00:33:35 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, and.
00:33:37 Maaike Klasen
The funny thing about ownership is that I cannot.
00:33:41 Maaike Klasen
Like, shouted you in the face and say take ownership, take.
00:33:45 Sjoerd Kranendonk
It like you can, but I won't have the best motivation.
00:33:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk
To do it right.
00:33:49 Maaike Klasen
That's the whole paradigm. Ownership is about you.
00:33:53 Maaike Klasen
Own it because you.
00:33:54 Maaike Klasen
Believe in it and you feel it? Yes.
00:33:56 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes. And I think this is a a nice way to round it off because.
00:34:04 Sjoerd Kranendonk
In agile and Scrum teams, one of the most important aspects for supporting self organization and ownership is the principle of pool. We we want individuals and teams to pool work. When we do Sprint planning like it's not the product owner who says OK, these features need to be done this Sprint.
00:34:25 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Routes.
00:34:26 Sjoerd Kranendonk
We asked the team, we we present to the team as product owners, OK, this is the, these are the the the most important things we could could do right now, OK.
00:34:37 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:34:38 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Please, let's work on how this could be a Sprint goal. What would fit in the Sprint? Maybe to reach the Sprint?
00:34:38
Yes.
00:34:44 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Goal.
00:34:44 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And you leave to the team to pull items into the Sprint, and also even to arrange rearrange the Sprint during execution. And I think in team coaching, even if you separate it out from scrum, this is really important that the.
00:34:59 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Team should pull.
00:35:02 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Basically their.
00:35:03 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Then.
00:35:04 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Development process, their own learning process, their own, uh, growing as a team and you should not push tools or methods onto the team, but offer them. And if the team says Oh well, wow, now that you explained this to we want to try it because you know maybe it helps or we think it will help.
00:35:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Whatever. That's the place you want to be and not. Yeah, the drill Sergeant that she said saying ohh. I see you have trouble communicating, OK.
00:35:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk
You need to XYZ then already the word need to you must. Yeah, it's a red flag.
00:35:41 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Right.
00:35:41 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, is awkward.
00:35:42 Sjoerd Kranendonk
It really is to support that pool in the team in coaching so they get that feeling of ownership of being able.
00:35:52 Sjoerd Kranendonk
To improve for themselves, and of course everybody needs support sometimes. But you know, we should make sure that by giving support, people don't stop trying to work for themselves.
00:36:05 Maaike Klasen
Yeah. And then I think to add on that to to round off is that is why do you want that because we live in a fast changing environment, often a fast changing world. You want to be adaptable, you want to be agile and therefore you cannot dictate.
00:36:13 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes.
00:36:25 Maaike Klasen
You need to collaborate. You need to communicate from a product on a point of view to a team. The team comes with the skills the product owner comes with. The value estimation or like he has the that part and you both talk about, OK, what's next in this Sprint?
00:36:41 Maaike Klasen
So it is about that interaction.
00:36:45 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah. Yeah, because we did. Didn't talk about that. But the whole reason to have a team is because you have problems that an individual can solve on their own, right. So you need to make sure that the team also works in a way that you can solve those complex problems, basically, and that that's the whole reason we want self.
00:37:05 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Organization we see benefits of Agile and Scrum and stuff, so that's a really nice way to close it off I think.
00:37:10 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:37:13 Maaike Klasen
Yes.
00:37:14 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Thank you very much for this nice conversation.
00:37:16 Maaike Klasen
Thank you too.
00:37:18 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Do you have any current books or blogs you want to recommend to people that you maybe read recently or an article for your your current education? Maybe you read something that you say Oh well, this is also.
00:37:26 Maaike Klasen
Well.
00:37:31 Sjoerd Kranendonk
If.
00:37:32 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Your scrum Moss or coach?
00:37:34 Maaike Klasen
Well, I'm very intrigued by it. It's Dutch, though it's picky, Dida finicky. Kramer.
00:37:41
Hmm.
00:37:42 Maaike Klasen
She's framing the world that we are living in. So yeah, that I would really recommend to read.
00:37:47
Hmm.
00:37:52 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes, for the Dutch listeners, Yitzchak Kammer tricky title.
00:37:55 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, sure. I should have prepared this.
00:38:03 Sjoerd Kranendonk
If if if it pops up later, there's always the show notes where we can put links in and we will also link to your profile if people think, oh, that was a really nice conversation with Mike. I also have something I want to discuss and maybe she can help our team or something. I'll put your LinkedIn profile in. So if you have any anything that pops up, I can still edit.
00:38:04 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:38:18 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:38:19 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, right.
00:38:23 Maaike Klasen
Yeah.
00:38:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk
I will add that Yitzchak camera book and yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation. I hope it's helpful for people. It was helpful for me at least.
00:38:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And I hope to see.
00:38:33 Maaike Klasen
I have one more book, actually it's from it's also Dutch. It's from Francisco. Adolfo today. Yeah. Yes, all about setting goals and how to guide your team through.
00:38:34 Sjoerd Kranendonk
You then yes, yes.
00:38:41 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Oh yes, I love this guy.
00:38:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yeah, very nice structure. So for people who find it difficult to structure their team coaching approach.
00:38:49 Maaike Klasen
The calls, yeah.
00:38:51
Yeah.
00:38:58 Sjoerd Kranendonk
And this is really helpful also contracting everything, yes.
00:39:00 Maaike Klasen
Very.
00:39:02 Maaike Klasen
Yeah, it it creates the frame for coaching.
00:39:05 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Exactly. Agile teams shudan Francisco dastra. I hope they those books will eventually be translated to English so everyone can enjoy them, but for now, for the Dutch audience, here are two great books to read and apply, let's say.
00:39:06
Yeah.
00:39:08 Maaike Klasen
Yes.
00:39:21
Yeah.
00:39:21 Sjoerd Kranendonk
For it. And yeah, I hope we can continue this conversation some other time because I feel like there's a lot of more, a lot more potential in this emotional field we have here.
00:39:22
Yeah.
00:39:31 Maaike Klasen
There you go. I feel so too. That's that's the power, right? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you too.
00:39:36 Sjoerd Kranendonk
Yes. So thank you and.
00:39:40 Steve Trapps
See you soon.
00:39:43 Steve Trapps
Thank you for listening to the scrum Facilitators Community podcast. The place for real conversations around Scrum. Do you have a story to share in this podcast? Get in touch with us at podcast at scrumfacilitators.com.