Scrum Facilitators Community podcast
We promote and support the growth of professional Scrum. Scrum Facilitators helps the professional Scrum facilitators in their journey. In the podcast we discuss ideas, lessons and tools that can be helpful for Scrum Masters, Product Owners and Developers. Bringing forward ideas by interesting people from the community and our larger network.
Scrum Facilitators Community podcast
How Exploring Neurodiversity Can Improve Work for Everyone - Anita Kalmane-Boot
Learn more:
- Anita Kalmane-Boot Linkedin
- Book on ADHD: Dirty Laundry (bol.com)
- Book on Neurodiversity and its History: Neurotribes (bol.com)
- Recorded just in time for https://www.neurodiversityprideday.com/
- Sjoerd Kranendonk Linkedin
- Scrum Facilitators (free materials, training schedule and more)
- Scrum Facilitators Meetups
Are you working with Scrum/Agile and have similar stories and tips to share? Or do you know someone that you want to voluntell to be a guest? Reach out! podcast@scrumfacilitators.com
Also check out our website, LinkedIn and Meetup
Steve (intro)
Thank you for listening to the scrum Facilitators Community podcast. The place for real conversations around Scrum. Do you have a story to share in this podcast? Get in touch with us at podcast at scrumfacilitators.com.
Sjoerd
Hi everyone and welcome to the scrum Facilitators Community podcast. I am your host Sjoerd Kranendonk, and with me today is Anita Kalmane. Anita is here to talk about neurodiversity. Anita, can you please start by telling us a little bit about who you are and why you are interested in this topic?
Anita
Sure. Thanks for inviting me. Sure. So I'm Anita. And as we are in Scrum facilitators, community podcast, I'm also a Scrum master currently working at the Dutch company called Bauwatch. And I do talks and workshops about neurodiversity. And you asked me why am I? Interested in this topic. I discovered neurodiversity quite a long time ago. Without knowing it's called that way. When I met some of my friends who apparently had different traits of neurodiversity. So I have a friend with or by now several friends with ADHD I have. A very good friend with autism and. That was the first time I started learning about neurodiversity, and a few years ago I heard for the first time that there is an umbrella term called neurodiversity which unites all those different traits, and that got me interested to learn more. And and recently I worked in a team with even more neurodivergent. So is that. Let me thinking, hey, do people who are not neurodivergent and know enough about neurodiversity? And should we start talking more with neurotypicals about it? And that's how I got into the bubble.
Sjoerd
Cool. Thanks for for that introduction and for people who may be new to this kind of terminology, can you very briefly explain the difference between someone that has a neurodivergent brain and neurotypical brain? Maybe give an example.
Anita
That's definitely a good question to start with. I sometimes tend to forget. So thank you for asking to explain it. So to put it simple, most of the world or around 80% of people are called neurotypical. And that means that their brain work in a certain way, and the world and the society is built around their way of thinking and their way of communication and the way how their brains work. For around. 20% of population and the numbers are not always very true because the numbers could be higher. So for those around 20% brains work in a different way and this different way can be quite diverse. So it's hard to say what exactly it is because it does depend on your condition. And on several symptoms you have, but in general it means you're living in a world which has not been optimized and not being built for you, and you need to adapt yourself without knowing why you struggle so much. Does that answer to your question? Sure.
Sjoerd
I think that does answer the question and the most people might have heard of things like ADHD or autism as neurodivergent examples. Those are, I think also the most common ones, but there's more than just those two, right?
Anita
There are round if I'm not drunk, 15 to 20, but it depends how you count them. Some others which people might be more familiar are bipolar disorder, for example, or.
Speaker
MHM.
Anita
Gifted in Dutch, it's called hog bahut. But gifted is a word used in in English. There are some others which are less heard about, like dyspraxia, and there are also some which there are still discussions. If that's part of neurodiversity or not.
Speaker
Uh.
Anita
Like a few weeks ago, I heard somebody discussing is introversion part of neurodiversity or not? There are people saying yes it is. There are people saying no, it is not and there are a few others so straight. So that's why it's also sometimes hard to talk about the topic because the borders are not always very clear.
Sjoerd
Yeah. And I think that is also something to keep in mind when we discuss this topic, right, because. It is not always clear cut and. Some people may feel that if someone tells about the way they perceive the world being neurodivergent that they feel like, oh, but I have the same. So when is it neurodivergent and when is it just someone that works in a certain way? It can be pretty close together, right?
Anita
That's definitely true, and it reminds me of a familiar example, probably a lot of people have heard one of the neurodivergent neurodiversity traits is obsessive compulsory disorder OCD, which a lot of people have heard and everybody has a stereotype. It's only about the people who like to wash their hands.
Speaker
Yeah.
Anita
500 times a day and have everything in a very specific.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Anita
And then you do hear jokes. Ohh I'm very, very structured and I like to have everything very clean, so I'm a bit OCD and actually that's quite offensive for a lot of people who do have set traits. So there are specific reasons people are studying those topics, who have medical education and who.
Speaker
Yeah.
Anita
Bars there to give diagnosis and we should always remember we don't joke about. I have a bit of a broken leg or I'm a bit in the wheelchair. That's not the thing being said. So why do we say it about mental health? And people should just say I'm very organized. For example, that's not a bad thing, and that's not going to offend somebody if you say I'm more organized than an average person.
Sjoerd
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a good thing to remember. And I think it's also one of the things. That makes it, I think, into the neurodiverse side instead of just being organized, is if you. If it gets in your way right? So if if you feel the way your brain works or you need to do certain things to make them work for you, do not fit in regular life and you struggle with that, that might be a sign that it's good to to explore this, right?
Anita
Said perfect what you said because it's indeed about not only having those things, what makes you different or using them as your strengths, but are they also in your way or are you struggling with? Something because being very organized or liking to have everything happen on time. For example, it's definitely a very good saying, but it can get out of hand if you. Don't have a lot of tolerance towards people who sometimes get late or if something happens 30 seconds late or direct communication. One of the traits for autistic people, it has a lot of the positive things, but it's also easy to imagine how that could go wrong. And if you say I'm being very direct and I have never had problems with it in my life.
Speaker
MHM.
Anita
Then you should see is that one of the symptoms that you might have autism or is it just you're very good at saying direct things in a polite enough way, because that's often the things with people with autism struggles that they say. Things in a way that they don't overcome so polite as they think they would. So and and that's. And then you say yes, it is impacting my life in a way that other people are looking at me differently.
Sjoerd
Yes. And the interesting thing I think, and why I invited you on the podcast.
Sjoerd
Is that you are working to open up discussions about this in scrum teams, but it could also be a non scrum team because it does not have much to do with Scrum. I think per se, but that's maybe an interesting question. Is this for you thing that is related to Scrum in any way or? Do you see it as just a team thing?
Anita
I originally picked up the topic when I was thinking what could I be talking about for Scrum Facilitators original conference because I wanted the topic which hasn't been used too much and where is something I can bring new insights? Because talking about general Agile, I feel so many people are doing it. And that's how I came up with neurodiversity. But indeed, as you say, it's relevant for every team. It's relevant for managers, for HR leaders, for Scrum Masters, Agile coaches, even if you are just a team member, it could be relevant for you to better understand your code. However, I'm also believes that scrum teams and product teams have higher chance of having neurodivergence in the teams, so they're more exposed to it. It doesn't mean it's less important for other teams, but if you don't have any neurodivergent colleagues in your. UM. In your departments and it's nice to know, but it's a bit different when you work with several people who have those diagnosis and to be true, I believe all of us are working with colleagues who are in one or another way in their other version. It just could be that not everybody is aware that their colleagues. Have some sync.
Sjoerd
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's especially if people have been in, in professional life for longer periods, they may have developed certain personal coping strategies that totally mask their neurodiversity, of course. But that doesn't mean I think that they are doing well per say. Right.
Anita
Uh, funny thing I was chatting today this morning with somebody who is 40 plus and got their diagnosis just recently and one of the reasons why they got their diagnosis so recently was because they have been masking themselves so good that it was not visible in the previous job. Interviews in previous companies they were working for. And that happens a lot that people don't realize that there is a word for how you're feeling and for why you're being different or in a lot of cases, you just saying I'm. I'm weird. I'm different. And there are people who accept it and they can live. I don't want to say perfect, but they can adapt to themselves. And then there are people for whom it's much harder to adapt. So the more we talk about neurodiversity, the more people get diagnosed and then they can also get the necessary help if that's needed. I also talked recently with somebody who, after one of the talks or workshops, came to realize that they have a lot of the symptoms of. ADHD went to get diagnosed and then got confirmation. Actually they do have ADHD, so that made me very happy because it means by spreading the word more and more people are realizing. That there's nothing wrong with them, they just have different differently wired brains. And that's totally fine.
Sjoerd
MHM. Yeah, exactly. Uhm, so we've talked a bit about some stuff around the workshop. People book a workshop with you. What? What can they expect, I mean. If. What would be the goal of the workshop if you would book it, and what do people generally get out of it without going into much detail giving it? All away, right?
Anita
Feels like an advertisement.
Sjoerd
A little bit, but I mean we're talking about it, so people get curious, but by.
Anita
Definitely. So what I like to do, as I said, I like talking with neurotypicals about neurodiversity. So what? You can get out of the workshop is first.
Sjoerd
Now I think.
Anita
Understanding what it is and recognizing some symptoms for the most common diagnosis, because obviously you cannot talk about 1520 of them in the short workshop, but you can start get people thinking about it and then depending on what the wishes and the needs are. Talk about how can we use neurodiversity as strengths in the workplace because it's often talked about just gives those people. More space, quiet areas and so on and so on. Which actually means you only talk about things that might be struggling with. But there are a lot of things where Neurodivergence might be outperforming certain neurotypical colleagues. And it's also important that you use their strengths in the right way so they can flourish and. Not only we need to adapt now, we also need to use their potentials. So in those workshops we also talk about how you can be using their potential specifically for your teams. So I try to cater it to as much as possible to the audience and the workshop attendees.
Sjoerd
I've I've I've been in one of those workshops not only on the Scrum Facilitators Conference, which, by the way, tickets for the next one are for sale right now. Little bit of advertisement. But also in a smaller workshop, and I really enjoyed talking about this stuff. And one thing that hits me, I don't think we talked a lot in those workshops yet about strength. So I'm really glad to hear that you're stressing that more also to really get the the the full scope of. What is important to discuss here and how you can make stuff better basically for teams? But the one take away I had that was big for me was like. We should talk more to each other in teams in general about strengths, ways of working, stuff like that we tend to. Go too easily to the stage of oh, but we're just we're all professionals like we all have, like, 10 plus years experience in the workforce. So we don't need to invest in this. We'll just figure it out. We're professionals, you know. While discussing about wants needs different ways of experiencing stuff, actually strengthens the team very much and I think. Not just for the narrow, diverse people, but also for neurotypicals, it can be very good to be able to express. Your a difference desire from having a daily stand up for or daily scrum. For instance on at 9 at 9:00 every day because you always sleep in late because you cannot sleep early and that has nothing to do with neurodivergence, right? But we often just think, Oh well, I have to adapt because the rest of the team. Once it this way, but we actually never discussed it. So it's good to get these conversations going in teams, I think.
Anita
And I think in general, vulnerability in any team, not only scrum and product teams, is something that's often under evaluated. We kind of know, yeah, we should share stuff about us, but hey, it's work. So I'm going to stay professional and I'm not going to do it. But the more you open. Up about since you're struggling with the more other people will open up and they're sharing things, and neurodiversity is one of those things. As soon as you start talking about it, more and more people, as I said, come out of the closet and start sharing things about themselves as well and. What you mentioned daily at 9:00 is is a great example. It's not always automatic that. Daily should be at 9:00, or is that people who are late should adapt and just be on time? Is that something which a lot of people take for granted, but who even said daily should be in the morning in the 1st place exactly. That's one of the examples I I often say it's not about doing it because most of the teams or companies are doing it. You should go back to the core. Why do we have the daily? What is the benefit of the daily and what's the best way, what works for our team?
Sjoerd
Yes.
Anita
OK, for most of people, it's true, it works in the morning because that's how their brain works and they like to prepare for the day. But I have also worked in a team where most of people were in Europe when we had one American colleague and we had daily at 4:00 European time because that was easiest. Time to adapt the schedules between Europe and America. So that's a good example how it can work for the team.
Sjoerd
Exactly. And if you don't discuss this or don't have the. You stay in that that. Ohh. It's not professional to whine about inconveniences, right? Sometimes people also have that idea, like I cannot complain because I have to be professional. This is yeah.
Anita
And this is where you, as a scrum master, play a very important role, because since that's in that team of this one American and my American colleague was very.
Speaker
Yes.
Anita
People pleaser, you might say, and their initial reaction would be I'll just wake up middle of the night and join the meeting. No, that's not the solution. And it's very sweet of you to offer, and maybe that's acceptable in where you're coming from, but.
Sjoerd
Yes.
Anita
We here in Netherlands don't accept people waking up in the middle of the night if unless it's an emergency. So no, we will be moving daily to the normal working hours for everybody, and if you just let people. How how do you say if you just let people to accept things without double checking if that some things they're comfortable with in the long run, it's not going to work out. And that's the same with a lot of neurodivergence that they're so used to masking and adapting that sometimes it's it's a double digging. I have had colleagues who don't like turning their camera on because it's distracting not only for neurodivergence, and that's the company demands you should always have your video on or the product owner asks for it or somebody else and say people do it.
Speaker
Yeah.
Anita
Or don't do it and then hear a lot of complaints, but you should go more to discuss what's the benefit of having the video camera on? Are there benefits? How will we use it? Are there certain meetings where it's more needed than other ones? And I have also had some colleagues where I ask please switch your camera off because everybody can see that you're being distracted and they get distracted and maybe you're not even distracted, but you're like fidgeting or or you, like doodling, but. When you're on the camera, is not visible. What else you're doing? So people think you're not listening while you are, and then they get distracted. So it's better just to have audio as long as we know you're present. So yeah, automatic answer. Have your video camera on nonstop. That's that's not the solution. I I got very, very emotional about it, sorry.
Sjoerd
No, that's fine. I think it's important. I think this highlights a very important thing to have an open discussion about this, because if you know someone, it gets gets distracted unless they are doodling.
Speaker
Yes.
Sjoerd
Then you also know what they are doing when they're on or off camera, so it's really important to talk about this stuff.
Anita
And I think that's why you also need to have enough psychological safety in the teams that people feel comfortable saying. It's it's. I feel comfortable saying it might look like I'm not paying attention, but actually I am. When I'm on my phone or I'm doodling, that helps me to pay. Mention so they feel safe saying it and the rest of the team accepts them as who they are and trust since that is true and not or you're just saying it because you don't pay attention and that's just an excuse. There is this level of safety and trust in the team. I have seen enough teams who like. Having long discussions, but not everybody can focus and then there are those couple of colleagues you notice they're not following, but they don't dare to say it loud or step out of the room to have 5 minutes.
Sjoerd
Now.
Anita
Break and then you effectively have people bodies who don't contribute to the meeting and who get more dissatisfied and angry minute by minute, and it would be nice if it's not up only up to the scrum master to interrupt and say hey, do we need a break? Does everybody need coffee?
Speaker
Uh-huh.
Anita
Is this the right time to continue?
Sjoerd
Yeah.
Anita
Is that everybody can say, hey, guys, we're actually going in circles and circles.
Sjoerd
Exactly. So that's also I think one of the most important jobs of a scrum master or a team coach to really get the team to that place where basically. Everyone, or almost everyone, has those sensors and checks out. How are? How are my teammates doing? I may be engaged in a discussion, but is Pete, for instance, still paying attention? Ohh no, he's he's on his phone. Oh, this is all team meeting, so that's not something we like. We should ask if there's a break needed or whatever, and that's that's I think something that you as a scrum master should work on to get that in everybody's head, right. It's a team responsibility. Well, yeah, sorry.
Anita
No. To add on what you're saying and you as a team member should know, Pete good enough to know is Pete usually on the phone if Pete is never on his phone? Suddenly he's on his phone. Is maybe there's an emergency, or maybe Pete is distracted, or if Pete is always on the phone. Maybe there's something else, but you should know each other enough to be able to tell just from a few seconds what the situation is. And should you say something or not.
Sjoerd
Yes. Yes, and and no to check in like. OK, Pete, we notice you're on your phone. Should we pause or something up and then he can. Say, what's up, you know, and I think there's. There's one thing, though, that we need to be careful with in all, in all the things we discussed and in, in, in every case is to not. Hold everybody to the same standards and also in this example I think that's why I'm very carefully choosing my words in not. Putting the bar at everybody should be aware of this. Everybody should be able to call out because. That's also very much due to personality. Some people are more sensitive to what's happening in the room. Some people are less sensitive, but as long as you. As a team. Have enough people that are paying attention to what happens and calling it out. Then then you're you're doing great, I think, but I don't think we should get to a place where we say, oh, well, Maria never calls out someone. So she's not doing her part. In being a good team member, right? So that's that's also something we should be careful.
Anita
Ohh, I love how you added it. I think that's a very important point. It's team responsibility and it doesn't mean. It's. Every single person's responsibility because some people are better than the other ones. I think it all goes back to Scrum. Master shouldn't be the only ones. There should be more people doing it, but it doesn't mean that every single person has the same capabilities.
Sjoerd
Exactly. And this also ties, I think, neatly back into your workshop. And the thing you are advocating for in terms of neurodiversity and more awareness around it and more open discussion about what is needed, where benefits could lie, etc. Is exactly this idea that of course. As a team, you need to have some team agreements, some ways of working that are for the whole team, but it doesn't mean that it has to be. Exactly the same for every individual team member, right? You have some common ground like you have a a daily scrum where everybody attends, so you put it at a time that everybody can attend, however. You don't want to go too restrictive in team rules and agreements. For instance, I don't think it will ever be beneficial to have a A-Team rule that says OK. No one can work on with headphones on during these times of day because they have to be accessible for questions, right? Something like that.
Speaker
Alright.
Anita
It it's the same as you wouldn't expect a fish to fly and you wouldn't expect the bird to swim and so on. You make adaptive rules so that everybody can be doing their best and this everybody can do their best is important. Not everybody does. Everybody's else best.
Sjoerd
Yes.
Speaker
Yes.
Sjoerd
Exactly. Exactly. So that's, that's I think that the the most important thing to keep in mind because. The neurodivergent, neurotypical, whatever. We are all different, so we need to see common ground so we can have. We have easier way of collaborating. But not one-size-fits-all. That never works, yes.
Anita
And I think this is also important to notice how you need to spend enough time to get to know your colleagues. And obviously we talk about team buildings and things like that. But I have seen enough places where team building is, let's go out for.
Sjoerd
Yes.
Anita
That helps. Sure, it's better than nothing, not even talking about facts that not everybody drinks. I'm not. I'm not even talking about alcohol only. But it's not the team building. Every single person would like, but it means finding ways how you can connect and get to know your team members in a ways that makes sense.
Sjoerd
Exactly.
Anita
For your team, and not only in the first day when you meet, but on regular basis, so you can really make your team work, work for different people in the team.
Sjoerd
Yes, exactly. And investing time in this and also revisiting maybe sometimes putting it into the retrospective or keeping your antenna open for signals during other work times really helps to continue building that trust and. And empathy and compassion for your fellow workers. So. You can. Ultimately be more successful together, right?
Anita
And the shameless. I don't want to say Pramod, but shameless note for all managers. Engineering managers are indeed managers. Whoever is a budget holder and listening here, please do give budget to your teams to do different kinds of team building. I know companies who take it seriously and where there is budget. I also know companies. Where there is no budget because I say that's not serious enough, please don't underestimate it if you work in a company which does not give you a budget and you cannot manage to get.
Sjoerd
Exactly, yeah.
Anita
Please just make sure that at least give you time to do it during the working hours because there are loads of ways how you can build a team even on low budget, no low budget, but people shouldn't be sacrificing their private lives to do it.
Sjoerd
Exactly. Yes, that's that's very good. So those drinks you mentioned as team building those those should not be team building on its own, those maybe can be a bonus like like OK, we've done some done a great work day. Who's who's going to join for drinks? But it's very good also there to be mindful of. OK, do we have people on the team who can never join because of reasons then maybe we should also be more mindful of investing in the team in other ways because they will be left out, yes.
Anita
And. Also, if we talk about work time versus time after work, it's a good example of how not everybody feels comfortable saying. I don't. I'm not available after some working hours. Can we do something before 5:00 or 6:00? I know with people who have families, they feel more safe saying it for one or another reason. It's supposed if you don't have children, then you're always available after work. But there are so much more going in our lives you don't know. Both. So try to make it during the working hours because it's actually beneficial for your own team and for your own work.
Sjoerd
Exactly. Yes, yes. Amen to that. So. I feel we have explored a a great deal of of topics and also some some good nuance to this topic and I think that is very important also to to to approach this with nuance, to with curiosity and really be open to other people's worlds. In closing, you did not get to prepare this, so I hope you have something I would really love it if you have a book or an article to recommend to our listeners. It does not have to be on neurodiversity. It also can be like you read something yesterday. You think, oh, this is the. One, and of course I will put the links later if you have them, but can you think of something?
Anita
People ask me for resources quite a lot, and at this moment my suggestion is go and deepen yourself into specific conditions you think are more relevant for either you or your colleagues because.
Speaker
MHM.
Anita
Otherwise, it's like reading about agile without understanding what's agile. It's it's too broad. You need some more specific examples. That's how I see it. So I would suggest if you want to learn more about neurodiversity, look around what is the things to start with? Do you have a colleague with certain?
Speaker
Hmm.
Anita
And even if it's a condition, you know a lot or you know little, go and deepen yourself to learn more about it, because there are books and resources for all the conditions. My two favorite books I can recommend are also about the two most known conditions for ADHD. I'm recommending a book called Dirty Laundry, which is written by a British couple where one of them has ADHD and the other one doesn't, but it's very applicable also to workplace because it gives loads of tips to both sides. It's and it's very funny. Like you. You're laughing when reading it, so it's very easy reading material and and I have heard people who read it and they're like, oh, I recognize this from this and this person. So it brings you a lot. And for autism my favorite book at this point is called neurotribes.
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
Anita
Disclaimer, it's quite the. Thin. No. Sorry. Quite sick. I always mix those words, so I like reading, so I didn't mind reading a bit bigger book, but it gives a lot of history and what I liked about that one. It explains why we have so many stereotypes and misconceptions due to how.
Sjoerd
Yeah.
Anita
Autism research was evolving in the previous century. However, if you're not a history freak, and if you want something which is very short and concise, that's not the book for. You. I found it very easy to read and I often struggle with books where there's a lot of sense and nothing actually says this one felt like it's worth my time reading it. So dirty laundry and neurotribes.
Sjoerd
Cool. Thanks a lot. And UM, do you have any upcoming public talks or appearances planned where people can experience some more detail about neurodiversity or even? Have a workshop.
Anita
I have nothing planned at this point. I have a few ideas, but they haven't been finalized, but people are very welcome to write me on LinkedIn if they wanna hear or see me somewhere. Please do write a message if you wanna add me on LinkedIn with something specific so I know it's not just a spam and you're not collecting your LinkedIn. Events I always respond to every message so we can have a conversation about it. I'm very open to suggestions.
Sjoerd
Cool. I'm hoping your inbox gets flooded, but not too much.
Speaker
Yeah.
Anita
Thank you. Let's see.
Sjoerd
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So please reach out to Anita if you are interested in the topic in any way, shape or form. I know the workshop is constantly evolving. You've done a keynote on it, so there's all different kind of things possible. Thank you very much, Anita, for your time and your insights and sharing them with us. Here on the podcast.
Anita
Thank you. And it was an honor to. Be your guest steward.
Sjoerd
Yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation. So thank you again and hope to see you soon.
Anita
Bye!
Steve (outro)
Thank you for listening to the scrum Facilitators Community podcast. The place for real conversations around Scrum. Do you have a story to share in this podcast? Get in touch with us at podcast at scrumfacilitators.com.