Scrum Facilitators Community podcast
We promote and support the growth of professional Scrum. Scrum Facilitators helps the professional Scrum facilitators in their journey. In the podcast we discuss ideas, lessons and tools that can be helpful for Scrum Masters, Product Owners and Developers. Bringing forward ideas by interesting people from the community and our larger network.
Scrum Facilitators Community podcast
Feedback culture - Vera Lusink
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In the renewed Scrum Facilitators community podcast we talk about Scrum with practitioners in the community.
In this episode Sjoerd Kranendonk is talking to Vera Lusink about how a culture of feedback is useful when working with teams in complex environments.
Check out Vera on LinkedIn and Medium.
Some useful links from this podcast:
Non-violent communication
Workshop Vera and James hosted at Coolblue
Books:
Radical Candor
Being Genuine
Nonviolent communication
Dare to Lead
Connect with the host Sjoerd Kranendonk on LinkedIn and Twitter.
Do you have a story to share? Get in touch with us at podcast@scrumfacilitators.com.
Are you working with Scrum/Agile and have similar stories and tips to share? Or do you know someone that you want to voluntell to be a guest? Reach out! podcast@scrumfacilitators.com
Also check out our website, LinkedIn and Meetup
Welcome to the Scrum Facilitators community podcast. The place for real conversations around Scrum.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Hey, everybody, welcome at the Scrum Facilitators community podcast. We're here today with our guest Vera Lusink, who you will hear in a few seconds. I am your host, Sjoerd Kranendonk. And we're very happy to be back on the air or in the digital airways, however, you might call it. Vera is here in this podcast. And for the next about 30 minutes, we'll be chatting about a lot of stuff. And the reason I invited Vera is because she well, she's been in our environment as Scrum Facilitators for a while now we've attended some similar conferences, we've known each other. And she's been doing some pretty cool stuff. She's currently a Scrum master at Coolblue. But obviously, she's just here to talk about her own ideas. And we're hoping that she can share some valuable insights. So Vera welcome.
Vera Lusink:Thanks. Thanks for having me.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Yeah, very glad you wanted to join this. Well, fresh reboot of our podcast. And I'm wondering, aside from being a Scrum Master at cool blue, how would you introduce yourself? What? Yeah, in two sentences, what do you love most about your job? And how would your friends describe you?
Vera Lusink:I actually asked the colleague to help me out with answering these questions, because it's always easy to to have a different perspective, and especially for my colleague. And she mentioned that she would really describe me as a curious person. I'm always the person knows asking the why questions, maybe to even annoy the questions, if you might say so. But then I'm also very supportive, especially because we have a big agile group, within Coolblue. We, we have a couple of colleagues who we work with in a day to day basis. So it's really a supportive Agile community we have. And I would say, one of the things I really appreciate, and really hold dear to my heart is being reliable. So I do what I say and I say what I do. And that really also resonates with the Scrum framework and the Scrum pillars of of course, that transparency, inspect and adapt. And I think that's very close to my heart. And that's also why I love my job.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:So you could say you're high on commitments also.
Vera Lusink:Definitely.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Yeah, cool. Cool. And I think that's a really nice balance to have to be someone that's annoyingly curious, but then also supportive to help clean up all the mess of all those cans of worms you're opening and, and stuff you're poking in, that stuff just jumps out. And then you have to clean up the mess together. So that that's really a nice image to have.
Vera Lusink:Definitely.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:And what do you like most about your job or was that already in there?
Vera Lusink:I think what I really appreciate one is indeed what I mentioned that we have, like a group of, I think currently 14 agile specialists working together very closely. So we really a supportive community, also helping each other out. But I also enjoy the freedom and the autonomy that we have in our role, and also how how we make impact within Coolblue. And which is one of our focus, of course, being a little bit better every day. So we're really help out our development teams, Product Owner community really a tight knit of people really loving to work together. Where we do personal coaching, team coaching, trainings, workshops, you name it, if you think it's a good idea, just go for it. And that's what I really love about my job.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Cool, cool. I just this morning, I was browsing LinkedIn. And I saw I think a colleague of yours, James, who posted an article about a workshop you co-created, it's facilitated recently. So we'll put that in the show notes. So that could be an example of the awesome things you do together as a cool blue, right?
Vera Lusink:Definitely. Definitely.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Nice, nice. So that's a an image of who is Vera a bit. But the image can also be sharpened by your biggest challenge. So I'm very curious, have you thought about this? What is your biggest challenge that you overcame?
Vera Lusink:Again, once one of the things I discussed with a colleague also and I think we we never we haven't learned how to be a Scrum Master. Right? There's one way or another this job became part of your job you stumbled upon it. It's something you thought was interesting. So I never learned to be a Scrum Master. me as a person I have a beta background. I have a chemistry background. So especially software was very far, far away from me. And I think the last, especially the last half year, I've been really working on how to be a human to be precise. So how to give feedback in a good manner. How to listen to emotions and recognize emotions, how to also listen to my own needs and protect my boundaries. That's something I've never learned previously. And especially, I think, as a Scrum Master, you're so service oriented, you're there for your Scrum teams, you're always there. And you might even forget that you have your own needs boundaries that you need to respect. So especially that combination, being extremely service oriented in our jobs, but also really listening to who you are as a human and where you want to develop. I think that combination is something I've been really busy with in the last half, half year, to be honest, yeah.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Cool, cool, very relatable. Also, especially if you have a lot of freedom in your job as you described. In Coolblue as an agile specialist, you're a tight knit group of people do awesome stuff. So you can also do a lot of stuff. But what do you want to do? Where do you want to develop? You have to keep yourself in mind to also and in what way did you grow or learn here most? What would you advise other people to explore if they're struggling with similar stuff?
Vera Lusink:I think, start small, that's always the one thing it is really listening, listening to what what feels comfortable, but really finding that small space of discomfort, which is like the the space where you grow as a human, where there's a safe environment, to also try out new things. And especially giving and receiving feedback is, it's so hard to do that in a good way. And also to really value that somebody took the time to actually provide you with feedback. And really looking at how can I grow as a person, but how can I also help the other person grow? So yeah, that those are the things we as as a group of agile specialists, but also within Coolblue is something we're really trying to improve the feedback culture within teams within our organization, because we really think everybody is able to benefit from that.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Very cool and do use specific theories or techniques or tools or resources that you could advise us to look into.
Vera Lusink:Definitely looking at. Indeed, it's funny that you already mentioned my colleague, James, is one of also the people I've been working with together to also increase the feedback culture within Coolblue. So we do feedback, speed dates, workshops, where we in a small setting in a team help each other with giving and receiving feedback. We have our trainings in available for a whole Coolblue. And we stumbled upon a book called nonviolent communication, which is a book that also really helps you with structuring those conversations. And radical candor is, of course, another important book for us, where you really look for, for the way the perfect spot to provide feedback.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Cool, that's that those are awesome resources, that nonviolent communication I've personally read, and I can heartily recommend it not just for your work life, but also for your personal life. And I might add, for any of my family members, or friends, or my wife is listening it's very hard. So that I've read it and listened to the audiobook multiple times. It does not mean I'm an expert. I still find it hard. But all we could do is try Right.
Vera Lusink:Definitely. And I think that's important, what you mentioned, there is like trying it out. And, and that's what I was I also love about working with my colleagues is that it will be difficult, and sometimes you need that emotional support, that little bit empathy for yourself and for your colleagues that it is hard, but that we truly believe in it. And that yeah, sure, in the growing discomfort, that's what as part of the job.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:I think that's very interesting and also brings to mind the ideas of self compassion, you know, in, in all the self help books that are out there, that are close to these materials. And it's also like the, say it's the open door that's often mentioned is you first have to love yourself before you can love others. Did this plays a part it was also part of your introduction. And what I find interesting is that in, in Buddhist culture, where this originates, or this became popularized 10s of years back that there's no actual translation for self compassion because in the word compassion in the in that language and that doctrine includes yourself. They find it laughable to not include yourself if you talk about compassion, talk about helping others and stuff. So that's, that's very interesting. It's typically a western theme. Anyway, that's a bit of a side tangent.
Vera Lusink:Yeah, no, it's This indeed. And I think it's really well, it's the awareness that indeed, as a role, especially as a Scrum Master, you're so oriented towards everybody else, but you might forget yourself in that situation. And indeed, it's, I think it's therefore really important to also be your whole self. And I think that's one of the things I also truly believe in. When it comes to working as a Scrum Master, we always say also, you bring your whole self to work. So everything that I'm learning on the job, especially also about giving feedback is indeed also helping out in my relationships with my friends. And in my with my partner, and especially, as you mentioned, it, it's it is part of your, your growing journey, to to be better at providing feedback, getting feedback, protecting your boundaries. And I think that's really something that every team can benefit from.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Awesome, awesome. I hope it pays off. In what ways do you notice that people change or adopt the stuff you teach them in these workshops, and these conversations about to have better feedback?
Vera Lusink:Definitely, I what I recently noticed the most is that we have, of course, our performance reviews, which is your typical half year review. So what maybe a long time ago, what used to happen is that people really collect feedback, they collected, they collected, and then once every half year, you know, you have your performance review, and then you get all the feedback, even from the stuff that happened months ago. So you forget, I forget, I might not even understand the situation completely. So therefore, we we really see an improvement in the continuous feedback loop. So in closing the gap of the half year and making it shorter again, so every time making it shorter, and really be giving feedback in the moment when it matters the most. And I think that is something that you see our teams really benefiting from. Because in the in your refinement, if your refinement didn't go as planned, then please have a meeting and talk about it immediately. And also include personal feedback and not only about the process.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Awesome, so So you're really shortening that feedback loop.
Vera Lusink:Definitely.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Cool. Cool. So in the preparation, we have a little structure that we'd like to keep in this podcast, just through to, you know, also to help ourselves to not get lost in conversation. We also asked about a concrete tool, or technique or theory that you recently learned that you want to talk about. And maybe you have like a case like a starting point, and something that you tried is something that resulted that we could like fit in five minutes. Yeah. So yeah, please,
Vera Lusink:I think what the the most well, immediate impact I see happening is when we perform our feedback speed date, which is workshop of, I would say two hours depending on the group size, of course, where we do an introduction based on the topic feedback, we show how you give good feedback, how you receive good feedback, and then actually in a speed date kind of setting you give and receive feedback from your colleagues. So it is a little bit forced, I understand it might not be the most fun thing. But actually, after each speed date we do, there's so much energy in the room, because everybody was a little bit nervous, but they do see the value of feedback. So it really helps to, you know, get the momentum going. And to just get out there, do it, give the feedback, received the feedback, and then afterwards, together, go to a bar celebrate, and, you know, be a group of people together again.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Yes, and just let things go. Okay, so and what kind of pitfalls or prerequisites would you consider for this kind of speed date? Because I can imagine in some situations, it might turn out to be quite the opposite effects, for instance.
Vera Lusink:Sure yeah. Again, start small. You don't have to address the biggest feedback point you have, you know, test the waters, see how it feels and don't go for the most difficult one you want to give, start small and be be precise. And that is I think if you if you are tempted to do like the biggest thing out there that is like on your mind for so long, and you're then it's a pretty big threshold to actually start talking about it and I understand that is scary. So that might be a biggest or the leap might be too big. So therefore start small. acknowledge the fact that it is scary and mention it and I think that's already lowering the threshold so much.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Awesome. Could you give an example like like a maybe something that you also give as an example in this training or this feedback sessions that you give them try to give people an idea of where to start.
Vera Lusink:Yeah, well, it is indeed, one, of course, be specific, be specific, in which situation you see the behavior happening. Make sure that the person understands you. So also double check whatever you're saying if somebody is resonating with it, because otherwise you create more distance. And what you want to do is you want to bring each other closer together. So it is it's really to, to check if the other person is understanding and then goe one step further, like use observable behaviors, give that back in a factual manner, make sure that you, indeed resonate with the other person, and then make sure that of course, that other person also has time to respond. Yes, it's really taking the small steps. Maybe even forcefully use the framework that's out there, you know, the 4g to four E's on how to structure your feedback, and really do it point by point by point because it will help you with giving qualitative feedback.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Well, that's awesome. And I'm gonna ask you for some links for resources to add, of course, for to these frameworks, but these four G's, these four E's, can you elaborate a little bit?
Vera Lusink:So the four? Well, it is actually, it's a circle where you go from behavior. So really the observable behavior that you see, I noticed that you were late for stand-up, that's one. That's really observable, there's no argument you can do there, then a feeling that made me feel keep it to yourself, that made me feel that you didn't take it seriously, maybe being on time, or that made me feel that the stand-up is not important to you. The impact is, is that therefore I worry that we might need to change the stand-up time or whatever. And then you talk about the desired behavior. So for next time, could we agree on and then have a conversation about it? Do you recognize it? Do you see it yourself? Is that am I wrong with my observations is really double checking? If if you're on the same page here,
Sjoerd Kranendonk:cool, cool. Well, that example really brings it to life. Thank you for adding that. That's, that's awesome. So you also have an example of a fail in this respect, like, like a time that you gave someone feedback and totally backfired. And of course, you also wanted names and the roles and titles of everyone involved... no, you can make it as anonymous as possible. Of course, it would be interesting to explore.
Vera Lusink:Oh, most definitely. I definitely had my painful learnings. Let me put it in like that. I think what I what my biggest well fail in this was is that I interpreted somebodies behavior as true. So I did an assumption. And well, we all know that assumptions. Usually, if you don't check them, well, they're gonna bite you in the bud one way or another. So I did an assumption. And my assumption was the feedback I was giving. So that person felt attacked, which I understand because I judged and not was, was giving my feedback on an observable level. But I provided judgment to it. So that already backtracked immediately our conversation, and then you can't fix it at that moment anymore. Because, well, you created the disconnect. And then the only thing you can do is apologize. Yeah. And yeah, be be be the bigger person there. And really, yeah apologize.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Eat a bit of humble pie.
Vera Lusink:definitely. Yeah.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Yeah. And then go eat actual pie probably to fix the relationship.
Vera Lusink:Definitely. But it is still it's still, it's still always worth the try, because you can fix it after. Yeah, I would say but indeed. If your intentions are pure, then yeah, then you can definitely fix it later. But it's a very, very awkward situation to be in.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Yes, yes. So if the person is listening, they probably know a situation you're talking about. But the rest of the world will remain with question marks. Very cool. Well, I'm, I'm tempted. We have a few minutes left the show. We're not closing yet. So I'm tempted to go into the topic of diversity a bit, but only if you can connect it to the things we talked about already. Because otherwise we'll need like 15 minutes to really get to the parts. Again, you know, it's just something that you you could talk about diversity in relation to to give them feedback and and growing?
Vera Lusink:Yeah, because, well, when you work with a team of very different people, then the way other people do things might not resonate with how you would do things. And therefore there might be some room to provide that feedback. But not because you want that other person to actually change and do it your way. But to actually create that awareness. Yes. So for example, I'm a person who really loves to be direct, straight to the point, not beating around the bush. People have more different style, usually love to make it a little bit more fluffy, you know, the conversations, first talking around it, and around it, which is for me, a place for annoyance, I can get get annoyed or frustrated or, and then I can give that back to the person and then we can improve our relationship because we create understanding, oh, you're this, this is your need, this is my need, how do we get together and actually grow our relationship together? So I think that is really also important that you are you and you have a certain need, and the other person has a different need. And if you don't communicate that to each other, you will only create distance.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Yes. So that's a very important lesson. I think also, giving feedback should not be about just reaching your own goal, or changing the other person to see it your way. Because that sometimes happens, right? Gets weaponized, but really about learning more about each other, and how to improve your relationship. Yeah, that's work or personal or whatever the goal. Yeah,
Vera Lusink:it goes both ways. And I think it's really important to create that awareness. That doesn't mean I have to change my behavior per se. But I I can relate to your needs more. And therefore we can talk about it openly. And once it's out in the open, it becomes also less awkward to actually talk about it.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Awesome, awesome. So it's not always about resolving in getting a concrete solution. First understanding.
Vera Lusink:definitely first go for understanding and then go from there on onwards.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Awesome. Awesome. So are there any things that you want to add yourself that you think we've touched on that, but I couldn't explain it yet, are stuff that you feel you
Vera Lusink:What I would like to may add to this is another should add? topic that is it's close to this topic, but it's also close to my heart is that it comes back to vulnerability, and in combination, also with leadership. Because what is also, I might even find it interesting that of course, it might also be scary to provide your manager with feedback, or to provide that person that's really high up in, in the ranks, so to say, to also be open, honest and direct with that person. So therefore, I think it's really strong if leaders and especially leaders of you know, big organizations also show that vulnerability and openness to actually accept and request feedback. And that it's that the hierarchy is therefore well resolved, maybe not resolved, but at least a little bit less. And they you next, then next to each other, and not that there's like this hierarchy in order to, to provide each other with feedback and grow together. Also, even there might be a manager relationship in there.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Yeah, I think that will be awesome if organizations go more in that direction, that hierarchy is not not any more about I tell you what to do, or, yeah, I have power over you. But I have power to resolve bigger problems that are invloving multiple teams or whatever, are budgeting are stuff that you as a team maybe don't have the energy or will to be working on. Right. So to really serve the teams. But do that from a human similar level or something like that, so that the hierarchy from a level or master kind of standpoint is gone.
Vera Lusink:Yeah, it's it's really creating that agile environment for teams to thrive. And that includes vulnerability and providing each other with feedback.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:What is the one tip for any leaders listening here, whether they are product owners or actual managers, CEOs, whatever was the one thing they should start doing if they're not already doing it?
Vera Lusink:Go first. And show that and be open and honest about it. And that yes, it might be scary and it might be uncomfortable. But yeah, go first that that's like you're opening doors with with going First,
Sjoerd Kranendonk:yes. And by going first concretely, you mean like showing vulnerability or giving feedback or?
Vera Lusink:Definitely. Yeah. And it's and also, being aware that that's scary. So yes, indeed, when you brush up on the topic of feedback, and let's say you wanted a top down approach, but also then mention that that is a scary thing, but that you think it's very valuable, and then maybe explain something from your own experience, and showing that vulnerability, even if your CEO, CTO, CFO, whatever sees you might have there, and then go first and show that vulnerability.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Cool, cool. The work of Brene Brown comes really comes to mind she one of her latest books is about this, of course, like vulnerable leadership. Yeah, courageous leadership could be the strong ability. Courage are really tightly knit. Right? Definitely. But it also links back to the nonviolent communication that you start out with, I think, because it's really scary to, like, let go of your own assumptions and goals. Because I remember from nonviolent communication that when you do a request to someone, you should always be prepared for no, of course, then you can talk about why it's a no. And if it's maybe maybe or that you can find another thing, that would be a yes. But be prepared for a no, if you do a request like that. Definitely, like, an eye opener for me. Yeah. And I wish everyone that I didn't ask requests of me, it knew that too. So they could easily accept my no's. But anyway,
Vera Lusink:But also how difficult it is to say no, that's another one. Yes,
Sjoerd Kranendonk:yes. Oh, yes.
Vera Lusink:Yes. Indeed, it's funny that you say Rene brown because she's my other. I have all her books. I really think she's really strong, strong personality, and I think they're to lead there to lead is one of the books that was a major Eye Opener also for me that, yes, it is all about showing that being human being your full self when you come to work, and that there's no distinguishing between who you are at home and who you are at work, because that only creates disbalance.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Yeah, yeah. Obviously, and I must say, as a Duchy, I find the book also at points to be like dramatic American. So yeah, sometimes read between the rules, but then general, the concepts are very awesome. And really hit close to home indeed. So for the for the closing part of this podcast. We are already talking about Brene. Brown, we talked about nonviolent communication. So. And we also like to ask, because we're gonna by sharing all the tried improving together share knowledge. So what one book or article currently, would you recommend to our listeners,
Vera Lusink:I'm currently reading Being Genuine. And as you might see, they're still a bookmark in there. So I'm halfway through the book. And it really like exactly what you said, it hits home, it's a book that I can read a lot in a go because it, it brings so much thoughts and ideas that I really have to pace myself to read through it. But I really had some amazing eye openers already about the differences between rational and feelings. And I'm like, wow, I never thought about it this way. And that's what I love about these kinds of books.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Awesome. And for the record, we can see each other in the recording tool that we use, we're not in the same room. We're online doing this. But can you repeat for the listeners, once again, the title and author
Vera Lusink:It's called being genuine. Stop being nice start being real. And it's from Thomas d’Ansembourg. It's a French author.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Cool. And obviously, we'll put a link to some of your competitors who sell these books because I think Coolblue doesn't sell books right? So let's say so we'll link to Amazon and bol.com.
Vera Lusink:Now, we don't. Go to your local bookshop.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Or go to your local bookshop, that's even better. They probably also sell through those platforms. Right. Cool. Thanks. Thanks for that tip. And, well, we're aiming to lineup more guests. And I would love to mention a few of those guests, but I cannot yet, because we're still scrambling to put them in. So if you're listening next guest please send us an email that you would like to be a guest and we'll chat and probably also awesome things to share as a practitioner. So without knowing the next guest, what question would you like them to answer?
Vera Lusink:What I always love to ask more as a getting to know other people is when and what was the last time you did something for the first time? So when did you go into that room of discomfort? And what was that? And Yesterday, I was in the office for the first time since a long time. And it's almost felt like that. Yeah, but it's not exactly what you mean, I get it. almost felt like that. Yeah. So long ago. Cool. Cool. And, yeah, do you have any other public talks coming up or meetups, that you're attending conferences that you're going to where people could actually meet you in person or talk to you more, I don't have anything in the books yet. We are looking into always being a speaker somewhere, because we love to love to share our messages. But if I do, I would always post them on LinkedIn. So I would say keep that. Connect, see, look, look it up. And then I will definitely post and keep you keep the rest post. It's about what my next steps are.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Awesome, we'll make sure to also link your profile in the in the show notes. And otherwise, people will just have to type in Vera Lusink, which is like really the Dutch way to pronounce it. So it will definitely be in there for the for the people that don't know how to spell it. I will save you spelling it right now. So that kind of concludes our time. And I'm I'm really excited. This is not the first time that I've tried timeboxing a podcast, but it's the first time that it's kind of successful. So that's also something that's worth mentioning. And I have you Vera very much to thank for it's because you were an awesome guest. You have a probably a lot more to talk about. So maybe we'll call you again sometime in the future to talk about other topics. And we'll also keep you in mind of course, as a friend of the Scrum Facilitators for something that we're cooking up, it's a conference, hopefully still this calendar year but it's it's proven difficult to plan anything the past period with all the lockdowns, but we're now hopeful that we'll we'll make something work. And we'll see if you want to join and talk and come meet other practitioners from the field. Of course.
Vera Lusink:Definitely, thank you so much for having me. That was really great to be part of the podcast.
Sjoerd Kranendonk:Awesome. And well to listeners. We hope you enjoyed this. If you have any questions or comments, please shoot them in the whatever app you use on LinkedIn, wherever you find this, and feel free to connect with me Sjoerd Kranendonk or Vera Lusink, follow Scrum Facilitators on LinkedIn. And we'll we hope to keep providing valuable content but also to also give us feedback, right? Even if you're not a skilled feedback giver. Please tell us what you liked or disliked. If you have additional questions. That's always good. And well. Vera. That's it. It was awesome to talk to you. Thank you.
Vera Lusink:Perfect, thanks.
Steve Trapps:Thank you for listening to the scrum facilitators community Podcast the place for real conversations around Scrum. Do you have a story to share in this podcast? Get in touch with us at podcast at scrum facilitators.com.