Fostering team growth and dealing with complexity through professional coaching - Maaike Klasen

In this episode, Sjoerd Kranendonk and Maaike Klasen delve into the nuanced world of coaching within agile frameworks. They discuss the importance of contracting for coaching sessions and the distinctions between general coaching, professional coaching, and Agile coaching. Emphasizing the emotional dynamics within teams, they explore the complexities and approaches to both individual and team coaching, highlighting the significance of shared goals in team coaching versus the personalized focus of individual coaching. 

The conversation underscores the challenges in balancing individual and team dynamics, with Maaike and Sjoerd reflecting on the importance of curiosity, openness, and courage in fostering effective team interactions. They stress the need for team coaches to trust the natural growth and evolution of teams, while also being ready to intervene when necessary with appropriate facilitation tools. The discussion also touches on the importance of every team member's voice and the role of the coach in ensuring that quieter voices are heard and valued. 

In conclusion, the episode emphasizes the critical role of ownership and self-organization in agile teams. Sjoerd and Maaike advocate for a pull-based approach where teams are encouraged to take ownership of their development and improvement processes, rather than having solutions imposed upon them. This fosters a more adaptable and resilient team dynamic, essential for thriving in fast-changing environments. The episode wraps up with a reminder of the collaborative nature of agile work and the importance of communication and interaction between team members and product owners. 

Find and Connect with Maaike:

• Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maaike-klasen-acc-coach-053798a6/
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/maaike.klasen
• Previous SF Podcast episode: Professional Coaching in Scrum

Maaike's book tips (sorry, dutch books!):

• Tricky Tijden - Jitske Kramer (Jitske Linkedin)
• Agile Teams: Hoe dan?! - Francisca Dalstra (Francisca Linkedin)

Are you working with Scrum/Agile and have similar stories and tips to share? Or do you know someone that you want to voluntell to be a guest? Reach out! podcast@scrumfacilitators.com

Also check out our website, LinkedIn and Meetup

Transcript

00:00:06 Steve Trapps 

Thank you for listening to the scrum Facilitators Community podcast. The place for real conversations around Scrum. Do you have a story to share in this podcast? Get in touch with us at podcast at scrumfacilitators.com. 

00:00:23 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Hey, everyone, welcome to the scrum Facilitators Community podcast. 

00:00:26 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Host, I'm your host Sjoerd Kranendonk and with me today is Maaike Klasen. She is a professional coach who works in the Netherlands, has a broad experience in team coaching and individual coaching, and today we want to explore a bit more about how knowledge of professional coaching can help Scrum Masters. 

00:00:47 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Agile coaches in organizations so welcome. Maaike, can you give us a bit more detail about yourself? 

00:00:51 Maaike Klasen 

Thank. 

00:00:52 Maaike Klasen 

Very much. 

00:00:56 Maaike Klasen 

So Maaike Klasen well, originally I'm actually an educational psychologist and a play therapist. So I come from the well working with children actually. But in the past 12 years, I've changed my career and working with adults in the corporate environment. 

00:01:15 

Hmm. 

00:01:16 Maaike Klasen 

Also agile and also worked as a scrum Master Agile coach. 

00:01:22 

Yeah. 

00:01:23 Maaike Klasen 

That's. 

00:01:23 Maaike Klasen 

It. 

00:01:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Who and just one additional question on this point. 

00:01:30 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

What makes coaching for you such a interesting or rewarding job? 

00:01:37 Maaike Klasen 

Wow, I love that question. 

00:01:40 Maaike Klasen 

That's the purpose, right? Yes, for me. 

00:01:43 Maaike Klasen 

It is just. 

00:01:46 Maaike Klasen 

It it it really gives me great energy. I feel I'm on top of the world when people are learning and developing and getting the best out of themselves and at first, and if I can play a role. 

00:02:05 Maaike Klasen 

That process, if I can just support that process, I yeah, it just gives me a lot. 

00:02:11 Maaike Klasen 

Of energy. 

00:02:15 Maaike Klasen 

And yeah, before I was more individually oriented. So yeah, and coaching one on ones. 

00:02:23 Maaike Klasen 

And I think over the past, you know, five years in my. 

00:02:27 Maaike Klasen 

Wrote of being a scrum master I I felt. 

00:02:32 Maaike Klasen 

It's all about the group, it's about how we interact with each other. 

00:02:39 Maaike Klasen 

I I struggle a little bit with the. 

00:02:43 Maaike Klasen 

The like blaming each other or like finger pointing. I felt like, you know, it's it's about the interaction. It's about how one person reacts to the other and how you can collaborate to make it work. 

00:02:45 

Mm-hmm. 

00:02:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. 

00:02:58 Maaike Klasen 

And that's why I'm passionate to to help teams in that. 

00:03:02 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Cool. Well, you already mentioned a pitfall for teams, right? Blame culture. Other stuff. But let's return to the basics a bit. Yeah, I know that we discussed off the podcast a bit about two types of coaching and I think this is a. 

00:03:10 

Yeah. 

00:03:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

A good starting point. So can you explain these two types of coaching you were talking about? 

00:03:28 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:03:30 Maaike Klasen 

So let's just say we're sitting at the table and I'm a scrum master for example. Or a coach, or I'm there in the role to assist and there is a team member and it's just struggling with the software program. It doesn't work or. 

00:03:49 Maaike Klasen 

Doesn't he doesn't know how to navigate, so he's asking. Maaike, please come. Can you help me in this? I need some coaching. I need some help. 

00:04:03 Maaike Klasen 

OK, so there are two ways of responding to that in broad lines, there are different ways, but let's say 2 main options. I can sit next to the person and I can say, OK, of course I can help you. I know how this program works. You know, maybe I don't know everything yet, but I can help you and I start to navigate through the software program. 

00:04:23 Maaike Klasen 

And he's happy. He he cannot work with it. 

00:04:29 Maaike Klasen 

That's a way of well, it's maybe a bit of teaching and and mentoring a little bit of coaching because you do partner and you do sit next to the other person. 

00:04:42 Maaike Klasen 

Professional coaching. 

00:04:43 

MHM. 

00:04:44 Maaike Klasen 

It's about. 

00:04:46 Maaike Klasen 

Hey. 

00:04:47 Maaike Klasen 

What's going on? 

00:04:50 Maaike Klasen 

What's what's the need to for you to to to learn this program? Why is it important for you to learn this program? What? What is it going to bring you? It's about more taking the other person into a dreaming state. 

00:05:08 Maaike Klasen 

It's a bit of a fluffy. 

00:05:10 Maaike Klasen 

Word. But it's like what's out there for you to explore? How are you going to grow? 

00:05:16 Maaike Klasen 

It's like finding that inner yeah, inner peace in yourself and then on how to apply. So it's about feeling it's about. 

00:05:22 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. 

00:05:28 Maaike Klasen 

What do you want? It's about thinking and it's about action because a lot of people do feel it's too fluffy, but it is really about action. At the end of the day. 

00:05:36 

Hmm. 

00:05:38 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. 

00:05:39 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:05:40 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. So it's basically finding out not just. 

00:05:44 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Like, no, it's basically if I get it right, not just helping the person with the question they come with, but finding out what's really the the, the the real struggle there or what they would really. 

00:06:01 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Benefit most of getting help with not just figuring out the program, but maybe like how this program is part of a new. 

00:06:09 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Part of their job description, and they're struggling with the program because secretly they are subconsciously they don't like this new part of their job, so they don't even want to learn it, maybe or whatever. And that's what you're there to find out then, right? As a professional coach? 

00:06:24 Maaike Klasen 

Yes, definitely. And of course learning the program is important. Look, only I'd want to differentiate what coaching is and what teaching or mentoring is. So I'm just trying to to yeah, to separate them. Yeah. 

00:06:38 

Exactly. 

00:06:41 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And this is important, I think, because uhm. 

00:06:44 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

I see in my daily encounters with Scrum Masters potential Scrum Masters in our trainings and other places, a lot of fluidity and sometimes fluidity is good because we need to be flexible in our approach. Look at what a team needs when you're scrum master. 

00:07:04 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

How you can best support them, because if you always take a pure coaching stance, for instance, this might also not be helpful all the time, especially if there's. 

00:07:12 

MHM. 

00:07:15 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Something that's blocking the team and they are not able to fix it themselves at that point. Then they cannot take the time to figure out how to fix it, because coaching also takes time. Then sometimes you need to just fix it, right? So then you're a teacher or you just. 

00:07:34 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Maybe more even a manager kind of stands as a scrum master. You fix the part of the system so the team can work continue their work. 

00:07:43 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

But for a lot of people, I see that by taking this stance that the fixer the helper, the maybe the teacher showing them Oh well, in another team we did it this way, so you can also do it this way. Takes away a part of the learning of the team, of course, and that's why I think it's important. 

00:07:59 Maaike Klasen 

Hmm. 

00:08:00 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

To make this. 

00:08:00 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Distinction that you just put. 

00:08:03 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, I I think that the moment a question comes towards you. 

00:08:10 Maaike Klasen 

It's so from the perspective of self organization and growing as a team and giving the team also the space to grow and as a as a facilitator as a scrum master. If the question comes to you, just think about, OK? 

00:08:30 Maaike Klasen 

What role am I going to play? 

00:08:31 Maaike Klasen 

Am I going? 

00:08:32 Maaike Klasen 

To fix this, or am I going to teach them how to fix it themselves? And in the last option, there's a lot of coaching skills involved. 

00:08:42 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes, yes. 

00:08:45 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And that's I think that's that's an interesting thing and. 

00:08:49 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

You explained in your introduction that you have some experience as a one-on-one coach, individual coach and also as a team coach. What in your opinion, is the main difference to look out for when you're working? 

00:09:04 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

On a team level, because I also see a lot of Scrum master still very much relying on one on ones with the team like. 

00:09:12 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Trying to be like the coach or the motivator, or sometimes even the collector of individual grievances, and then put that together in a retro or whatever. 

00:09:22 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:09:23 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:09:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

But I feel that team coaching should not be that per se. So can you help us there? 

00:09:30 Maaike Klasen 

Hmm. 

00:09:32 Maaike Klasen 

Well, it makes me curious about what makes you say it shouldn't be like that. 

00:09:39 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

UM, because what I just described is mostly, uhm, someone collecting individual opinions, filtering them. 

00:09:50 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Through their own opinion and then projecting them back to the team. And I've been there myself, I've done that so. 

00:09:54 Maaike Klasen 

Hmm. 

00:09:58 Maaike Klasen 

And then then what happens really? 

00:10:00 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Well, I think when I reflect on those experiences myself, I think the. 

00:10:07 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

As in the previous example, you take away a part of the, UM, autonomy of the team, and part of the opportunity for the team to learn and grow what they. 

00:10:19 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Want how they want to collaborate? How the team works and how they can become better in self organizing as you mentioned and. 

00:10:31 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Figuring out what they want and needs to improve, etc. 

00:10:35 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I hear in this case is, is, is how you think of yourself. 

00:10:43 

Hmm. 

00:10:44 Maaike Klasen 

So if you would take a picture of yourself. 

00:10:47 

Hmm. 

00:10:48 Maaike Klasen 

In the team. 

00:10:51 Maaike Klasen 

Where do you stand? Do you stand in the middle? Do you stand at the side? Do you go in between people? Do you move a lot? Do you not? 

00:11:00 Maaike Klasen 

Move a lot. 

00:11:02 Maaike Klasen 

So how do you look at yourself positioned in the teams system? I call it a system because it is a system. It's all. 

00:11:07 

Yes. 

00:11:10 Maaike Klasen 

So people were first before computers, but computers have systems and we as humans also have our human systems. So we interact. Yeah, we interact. 

00:11:20 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Definitely. 

00:11:24 Maaike Klasen 

And. 

00:11:26 Maaike Klasen 

We both create the groups feel we both we all create what's happening in that group, including you as a scrum master because you're part of that system. But how do you position yourself? 

00:11:30 

MHM. 

00:11:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. 

00:11:36 

M. 

00:11:39 Maaike Klasen 

So. 

00:11:40 Maaike Klasen 

In team coaching, we say we your your client, your team or your your coaching client is your whole team. So it's not individual individual individual. 

00:11:53 Maaike Klasen 

It's it's the group and the group holds their entity and it's almost like a third entity. So it's you, the coach, it's the group and it's the third entity and the third entity is characterized by the emotional field. So what's happening in the interactions? How do people feel? 

00:12:14 Maaike Klasen 

Think and act. 

00:12:18 Maaike Klasen 

And that's what you're reading, and that's what you're working with. And that's also where your interventions go. So they are not about individual behaviors, it's about group behavior, what's happening in the dynamics, in the interaction. 

00:12:32 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

MHM. 

00:12:34 Maaike Klasen 

So. 

00:12:36 Maaike Klasen 

In your situation, in your case, what you were explaining about seeing Scrum Masters, having a lot of one on ones. 

00:12:42 

M. 

00:12:43 Maaike Klasen 

My my experience, and I think also my opinion now and it's shared in my field. 

00:12:50 Maaike Klasen 

As well that. 

00:12:51 

But. 

00:12:52 Maaike Klasen 

You would make it a bit more complicated for yourself because you're part of coaching is contracting and contracting is making the arrangements about the conditions of the coaching. So what's the goal? How how often are we going to come together? How do we hold confidentiality? 

00:12:59 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. 

00:13:12 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. If you go to one-on-one, you hold confidentiality for all the one on ones that you that you're doing, how are you going to bring that back to the group if you hold confidentiality for all these people, you you can't, it's almost impossible. Well, it is possible, but. 

00:13:30 Maaike Klasen 

You're making it very complicated if you just bring it all back to the group and you have one. 

00:13:32 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. 

00:13:35 Maaike Klasen 

Contract with the group. 

00:13:38 Maaike Klasen 

You have way more opportunity to to to guide and coach the group as a whole and to build their their their self organization actually so their their own growth, yeah. 

00:13:51 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah, exactly. 

00:13:53 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Exactly. And I think this is one of the core aspects of scrum and Agile teams is. 

00:13:59 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

This. 

00:14:00 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Enabling the team to be self organising, uhm, and taking ownership as a team of that. 

00:14:08 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, ownership. Yeah. 

00:14:09 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. 

00:14:10 

Yeah. 

00:14:13 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And The thing is. 

00:14:16 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Sometimes I think we are too. 

00:14:22 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Easily scared off and maybe a scrum masters or coach is not courageous enough, which is important. Scrum value of course to make this step because as a. 

00:14:27 

Hmm. 

00:14:35 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Especially if you're not that experienced yet or you've had bad experiences in the past. 

00:14:41 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

As a professional, it can be really scary to have group conversations about difficult. 

00:14:49 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Subjects about different difficult topics about stuff that is not going well or. 

00:14:57 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Collaboration that is going. 

00:14:59 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Badly, or mistakes being made that had certain consequences for the group or for people in the group or for your stakeholders and your users. And then it's it's. 

00:15:09 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:15:13 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

I think it's. 

00:15:14 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Human to think ohh this is difficult. Let's first have individual conversations because that feels safer, right? 

00:15:22 Maaike Klasen 

Very, very normal, yeah. 

00:15:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And I think that that's where we are Scrum masters as your coaches, whatever your role is in relation to a team that. 

00:15:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

UM. 

00:15:35 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Should be self organizing or for whatever reason or wants to be self organizing or is on that path to really. 

00:15:42 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:15:44 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Be courageous and. 

00:15:47 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Take it to the. 

00:15:47 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Team. 

00:15:48 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:15:51 Maaike Klasen 

Well, I'm very happy that you bring that in, that it's all it's it's about. 

00:15:59 Maaike Klasen 

Going over an edge going. 

00:16:02 Maaike Klasen 

A certain emotional field. 

00:16:05 Maaike Klasen 

Of fear and yeah. 

00:16:05 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. And and. 

00:16:09 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

I think we need to recognize it. 

00:16:10 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Because. 

00:16:10 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah, it's very easy to say. Take it to the team. We say it in all our trainings all the time when we're doing master training. 

00:16:18 

Yeah. 

00:16:19 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And the reason we hammer on it is because it's scary. It can be complicated. It can be also for the team. Very scary because they may be not used to talking about this stuff in the. 

00:16:26 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:16:29 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:16:30 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Team. 

00:16:31 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah, because they're used to having one on ones with the manager about their development. How things are going, how the team is going, and then the manager. 

00:16:38 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Besides, Oh well, the morale is low. Here's some budget for team outing, by the way. I already booked the card lane, and you're going there next week. Yeah, all right. Yeah. Yeah. 

00:16:44 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:16:47 Maaike Klasen 

Which is also nice. 

00:16:53 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

That's the thing. 

00:16:53 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, that's that's very interesting actually. 

00:16:57 Maaike Klasen 

I'm I'm thinking about how I how I manage that. 

00:17:03 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. You talked about the emotional field and maybe you can explain a bit about for as an example if you. 

00:17:04 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:17:05 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:17:11 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Have this emotional field of a team that is maybe has experienced some bad things in the past and therefore. 

00:17:21 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Finds it hard to have that open conversation about stuff. So how do you? 

00:17:27 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

How do you not throw them in the? 

00:17:29 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Deep. 

00:17:30 Maaike Klasen 

Ah. 

00:17:30 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And give them the feeling that they will drown, right? 

00:17:32 Maaike Klasen 

Sure, Luke coaching is all about creating safety. 

00:17:37 

Hmm. 

00:17:42 Maaike Klasen 

And how do you do that? It really depends on the hotness of the situation. So I think it is important to. 

00:17:52 Maaike Klasen 

Have some kind? 

00:17:53 Maaike Klasen 

Of. 

00:17:55 Maaike Klasen 

Instrument for yourself on on how to determine how hot is this topic, how, how. And sometimes I'm also making mistakes, you know. I didn't think it was that hot or that actually often happens. 

00:18:12 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

You're thinking you're shining a light and the team reacts as if you threw a hand grenade. 

00:18:13 Maaike Klasen 

But you just. 

00:18:16 

Yeah. 

00:18:17 Maaike Klasen 

Absolutely. Or it comes back to me and like it's it's. Yeah, it's a it's a roller coaster. Sometimes it is, but. 

00:18:25 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. 

00:18:26 Maaike Klasen 

As long as you are aware that you hold the role of creating safety confidentiality, but safety also has to do with setting the stage. So what do we expect from each other? How do we want to interact if we have this discuss? 

00:18:32 

Hmm. 

00:18:35 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. 

00:18:47 

Put. 

00:18:47 

Yeah. 

00:18:47 Maaike Klasen 

The topic in front, so this is what we're going to discuss. This is what we have figured out. For example, there's a merger, 2 teams need to merge, OK? We don't really feel like one team. How are we becoming one team, we, we we don't understand each other yet that can be the topic of the discussion. 

00:19:02 

MHM. 

00:19:06 

Yeah. 

00:19:07 Maaike Klasen 

But then how do you want to interact at before you start talking about it? You wanna talk with respect? You wanna talk with openness? Courage. I don't know. It can be the scrum values. It can be other values. And most importantly is. 

00:19:19 

Right. 

00:19:24 Maaike Klasen 

Just dive into them. So don't just draw them on the board. 

00:19:30 Maaike Klasen 

As a word. OK, openness. It's a great word. What does it mean? Openness? How does that look like when? 

00:19:36 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. Can you give an example right? 

00:19:37 Maaike Klasen 

Do you feel safe? 

00:19:39 Maaike Klasen 

Sorry. 

00:19:40 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Ask people to give examples. 

00:19:42 

Yeah. 

00:19:42 Maaike Klasen 

Absolutely. How? What do you need as a person, really. Like, what do you need to feel safe and listen to each other? And then most of the times you've set the stage to to, to dive into the topic. How do we become one team? 

00:19:56 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. And basically this comes back again to the importance of contracting, right, because what you've been describing is actually contracting for the session. 

00:19:57 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:20:05 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, yeah. You have different levels. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

00:20:07 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Exactly so. 

00:20:11 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Cool. 

00:20:13 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:20:14 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And. 

00:20:16 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

So we now have established different approaches to coaching and making air quotes, which you won't see. 

00:20:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

On the podcast, but. 

00:20:27 Maaike Klasen 

In brackets. 

00:20:27 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. And the difference between like, general coaching, like what coaching means in the term Agile coaching for instance, it's more than. 

00:20:35 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:20:36 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And then pure coaching and you use the term professional coaching. I really like that. 

00:20:43 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And then we went into the difference between maybe individual coaching and team coaching, although I don't think we really. 

00:20:52 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Have grasped that. 

00:20:55 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

The essence of that difference yet, OK, we talked about it already about the emotional field of a group or a team. 

00:21:06 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

But. 

00:21:07 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

What is the key difference between coaching an individual and coaching A-Team? So so where? Yeah. 

00:21:14 Maaike Klasen 

The key difference? Yeah, the key difference. Maybe I did say it, but the key difference is that with the one-on-one coaching, you are of course in space. You and one person and and and the coach and you're coaching that individuals process. 

00:21:29 

Hmm. 

00:21:34 

Hmm. 

00:21:35 Maaike Klasen 

Roads to to their goals, to their individual goals. 

00:21:39 

Yeah. 

00:21:40 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. 

00:21:43 Maaike Klasen 

In team coaching, there's a team A-Team goal so and well, maybe that's. 

00:21:48 

It. 

00:21:51 Maaike Klasen 

What I often see in scrum, for example, is that there are look at that, look at the sprinkle. 

00:21:57 Maaike Klasen 

Hmm. 

00:21:58 Maaike Klasen 

It's it I. Well, I have hardly seen teams having one spring goal at the end of the Sprint. There are multiple goals so. 

00:22:09 Maaike Klasen 

As a group, you are working on multiple goals. 

00:22:13 Maaike Klasen 

So that means that you are. 

00:22:16 Maaike Klasen 

You have to split your time on and you have to change your focus on different topics. Different. Yeah. Different goals to achieve. 

00:22:29 Maaike Klasen 

I feel that's that's almost the. 

00:22:33 Maaike Klasen 

The essence of team coaching to have one shared goal and to have all the focus on that. 

00:22:38 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. 

00:22:42 Maaike Klasen 

I am. 

00:22:45 Maaike Klasen 

I'm not saying a Sprint needs to have only one goal. Well, I'm not going to to really like. 

00:22:52 Maaike Klasen 

Be very determined about that, but I'm just saying this is the essence of team coaching. You are sharing one goal together. 

00:23:00 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. And as a coach, your main objective is helping the team figuring out what is our one current goal that we want to address as a team and then. 

00:23:01 

Yeah. 

00:23:09 Maaike Klasen 

Sure. Yeah, yeah. 

00:23:12 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Helping them figure out ways to do that right. 

00:23:18 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. And also understanding why they are doing it. 

00:23:25 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes, very important. 

00:23:27 Maaike Klasen 

Very important the the value of it. What's the? 

00:23:30 Maaike Klasen 

Value of doing this. 

00:23:30 

Yeah. 

00:23:31 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Just like with the Sprint goal, basically, yeah. 

00:23:33 Maaike Klasen 

Absolutely. So that's in, in, in an agile environment really customer focused. So really like for, for who and what's the value of doing it. 

00:23:34 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah, yeah. 

00:23:47 Maaike Klasen 

And the fun thing is, is that when you really connect to that, when a group really. 

00:23:51 Maaike Klasen 

Connects to the value. 

00:23:53 

Hmm. 

00:23:53 Maaike Klasen 

It's going, the energy is going to blow like. 

00:23:56 

Yeah. 

00:23:57 Maaike Klasen 

And that can go 2 directions that can go towards like great team flow, great, great communication, great atmosphere. It can also go to difficult interactions because you're so passionate. You all wanna achieve. 

00:24:14 Maaike Klasen 

You've but you haven't really aligned as a group yet. You have not learned enough yet about each other. How do we really collaborate? And you get miscommunication, you get blaming, you get maybe ego comes into play, you know, and and that's where the team coach. 

00:24:23 

MHM. 

00:24:26 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Definitely. 

00:24:35 Maaike Klasen 

Comes in. How do we go back to alignments? There's another word in team coaching. How do we align? What do we need from each other? What do we need to learn from each other? So curiosity is a big thing. I think if Scrum adds 1 value it should be curiosity. 

00:24:46 

Yeah. 

00:24:52 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Nice. 

00:24:53 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And I think curiosity is basically a combination of the scrum values, openness and courage, because I think it takes courage to be curious, to ask questions when sometimes you have had the experience of stuff blowing up in your face. You just said yourself, you also have. 

00:25:11 

Yeah. 

00:25:13 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Experience this right you ask the question and then you get a response like oh wow, this was the most painful question for this team and. 

00:25:20 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

I just asked. 

00:25:22 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

About something really shallow in my opinion, and you have to really just you. 

00:25:27 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. 

00:25:27 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Have the courage to ask questions and. 

00:25:31 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

To enable openness, and that's basically curiosity, I think, and to learn, so it is in there, but I get why you want to put it separate. I'm just trying to tie it back to what is there. 

00:25:36 

Yeah. 

00:25:44 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. I like that too. Yeah. 

00:25:46 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And. 

00:25:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

I think it's a really interesting. 

00:25:53 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

To. 

00:25:55 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Be able to hold the duality as a coach in your mind and it's on so many levels, but the one I'm talking about now is like. 

00:26:06 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

The people in the team are individuals. They have individual preferences, individual ways of working, individual personalities, individual goals, even, and how to bring that together. 

00:26:16 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:26:19 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Not by doing the work as a scrum master or coach. Filtering that in a big Excel and then seeing what the common themes are and then putting that back. 

00:26:28 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Right. 

00:26:29 Maaike Klasen 

It's OK. It's OK. It's a. It's also a way of creating clarity, you know? Yeah. 

00:26:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes, but really helping the team figure out. OK, if we know more about each other about our preferences, maybe we can collaborate better if that's the thing they want to work on, right? Or maybe that needs to be fixed before they can work on finding the shared goal. Or maybe we need to look at. 

00:26:40 

Yeah. 

00:26:51 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

OK, we have this shared goal as a team in this organization. This value we are trying to add. 

00:26:57 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

But how does that relate to our individual value systems and how can we better understand each other but also know how to? 

00:27:07 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Make everybody's strengths really add to the project we're doing right now so it can be all these different things, but it's the duality about making sure individuals are thriving, basically. 

00:27:13 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:27:20 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Uh. 

00:27:22 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

In the system of the. 

00:27:23 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Team. 

00:27:24 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:27:25 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And that's that's really difficult I think to really. 

00:27:28 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Balance those in in, in that sense, I'm not saying individual coaching is easier, but I think it is. I am. 

00:27:34 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, no, great, great input. Well, firstly, it is a podcast. You didn't see me smiling, but I love. I was just smiling from ear to ear when you said Holt. The duality for me, that's one phrase I use. 

00:27:45 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. 

00:27:48 Maaike Klasen 

A lot. So. 

00:27:49 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Oh, nice. 

00:27:49 Maaike Klasen 

All the duality. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The in coaching you have to deal with dualities. 

00:27:54 Maaike Klasen 

All the time. 

00:27:54 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. 

00:27:55 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, and that is one skill as a coach to halt the duality. 

00:28:00 Maaike Klasen 

UM, and you say if it will be hard to to to hold it when it comes to individual? 

00:28:11 Maaike Klasen 

Meaning or or individual goals or drives or skills, even in in the context. 

00:28:19 Maaike Klasen 

Of a group. 

00:28:21 Maaike Klasen 

UM. 

00:28:23 Maaike Klasen 

I have an idea on why that is difficult, but do you have an idea? 

00:28:30 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

UM. 

00:28:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

I do. 

00:28:35 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And I'm I think this is there are many, many reasons. So we probably have different ones. But for me the 1st that pops up is that if you're in a group. 

00:28:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Due to individual differences, there's always people that are louder, grab more attention, and if you are too, are not aware of that. That fact and counterbalancing that as a culture citator then the their individual goals, motives and opinions. 

00:29:08 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Anchor like the drives the the opinion and the goal of the team. So then it becomes unbalanced and I think that is also. 

00:29:14 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:29:17 

Hmm. 

00:29:19 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Maybe a reason why some Scrum masters prefer or fall back on individual conversations a lot because they are afraid of not hearing the less. 

00:29:34 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Loud voices. 

00:29:35 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, voices. 

00:29:36 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

That would be for me the. 

00:29:38 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like the word voices in a group. We also in in team coaching terminology, we talk, we talk about voices and that can be literally your voice, but it can also be your opinion, but it can also be the voice of the system. So when you work. 

00:29:47 

Hmm. 

00:29:58 Maaike Klasen 

From a system point of view, from a team coach point of view. 

00:30:02 Maaike Klasen 

There's not really a right and a wrong, so that's also how you hold duality. There's not really a right and a wrong. There's not really a true and and a false. You know it's. It's the different voices that make this group and every voice. 

00:30:20 Maaike Klasen 

Is, is, is right partially they say so every voice is right partially. You all share a piece of the pie. The quiet voice is also communicate. They do communicate by being quiet and that's OK. So it's also really about. 

00:30:34 

Hmm. 

00:30:38 Maaike Klasen 

Holding a space that it's OK. 

00:30:42 Maaike Klasen 

And. 

00:30:43 Maaike Klasen 

And if it's not, the group will. 

00:30:46 Maaike Klasen 

So that is not through teen toxins or. 

00:30:47 

Hmm. 

00:30:50 Maaike Klasen 

Through feedback or through. 

00:30:54 Maaike Klasen 

You will so team coaching is also about really trusting your group, trusting that something will emerge. This group is every group is moving. We are all living organisms. We are moving. We are an ecosystem. 

00:31:11 Maaike Klasen 

Them and as a coach, you have to trust it is growing, it is going somewhere. Yes, it can get stuck and then you can intervene with very nice back form. I was said in. 

00:31:25 Maaike Klasen 

English. 

00:31:25 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Facilitation tools, I think, yeah. 

00:31:27 Maaike Klasen 

You have tools? Yes, there are plenty of tools you can find them online. You can do team coaching, training to to learn about these. 

00:31:35 Maaike Klasen 

Course. So yes, of course you intervene when things get stuck, but the team you need to talk with your team about that you cannot be a surgeon or a surgeon, right? Word like an. Yeah, yeah. 

00:31:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

The drill Sergeant like you should speak now. Now you should speak, yes. 

00:31:53 Maaike Klasen 

That's why. 

00:31:54 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

You're quiet. 

00:31:55 Maaike Klasen 

Exactly. You don't have to push and stare. Really, you. And also you cannot be like a doctor like you cannot. 

00:32:08 Maaike Klasen 

Really, you can. You can have an hypothesis about your team, but you cannot really have a diagnosis. The team knows itself itself, and you as a coach play a role to to create awareness to, to build upon that awareness. And you do that through techniques and tools. So there's. 

00:32:23 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Hmm. 

00:32:28 Maaike Klasen 

Absolutely. Professionalism about about it around it. 

00:32:32 

But. 

00:32:34 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, I think in practice, I feel it's about really acknowledging that this is these are the skills of a of a coach and it can bring a lot of value because then the team can achieve their goals easily or they can create value because they know why they're doing it, yeah. 

00:32:52 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And it comes back, I think again in that ownership, right, we want to enable the team to take ownership of their own journey, if you will, which is a bit of a too fluffy term for me sometimes, but take ownership of their own development. I think that's more what we're talking about, right. 

00:33:00 

Yeah. 

00:33:07 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:33:08 Maaike Klasen 

Journey for. 

00:33:09 

Fluffy. 

00:33:10 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I find it fluffy because what we mean, we mean development in this case or take ownership of their work or whatever, you know, of of their work environment that we can make it more concrete. And this is one of things I think we need to do as coaches also to help the team get clarity on what it is they need and want. 

00:33:11 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

00:33:19 

Yeah. 

00:33:30 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And then supports their development in that area basically. 

00:33:35 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, and. 

00:33:37 Maaike Klasen 

The funny thing about ownership is that I cannot. 

00:33:41 Maaike Klasen 

Like, shouted you in the face and say take ownership, take. 

00:33:45 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

It like you can, but I won't have the best motivation. 

00:33:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

To do it right. 

00:33:49 Maaike Klasen 

That's the whole paradigm. Ownership is about you. 

00:33:53 Maaike Klasen 

Own it because you. 

00:33:54 Maaike Klasen 

Believe in it and you feel it? Yes. 

00:33:56 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. And I think this is a a nice way to round it off because. 

00:34:04 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

In agile and Scrum teams, one of the most important aspects for supporting self organization and ownership is the principle of pool. We we want individuals and teams to pool work. When we do Sprint planning like it's not the product owner who says OK, these features need to be done this Sprint. 

00:34:25 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Routes. 

00:34:26 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

We asked the team, we we present to the team as product owners, OK, this is the, these are the the the most important things we could could do right now, OK. 

00:34:37 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:34:38 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Please, let's work on how this could be a Sprint goal. What would fit in the Sprint? Maybe to reach the Sprint? 

00:34:38 

Yes. 

00:34:44 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Goal. 

00:34:44 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And you leave to the team to pull items into the Sprint, and also even to arrange rearrange the Sprint during execution. And I think in team coaching, even if you separate it out from scrum, this is really important that the. 

00:34:59 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Team should pull. 

00:35:02 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Basically their. 

00:35:03 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Then. 

00:35:04 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Development process, their own learning process, their own, uh, growing as a team and you should not push tools or methods onto the team, but offer them. And if the team says Oh well, wow, now that you explained this to we want to try it because you know maybe it helps or we think it will help. 

00:35:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Whatever. That's the place you want to be and not. Yeah, the drill Sergeant that she said saying ohh. I see you have trouble communicating, OK. 

00:35:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

You need to XYZ then already the word need to you must. Yeah, it's a red flag. 

00:35:41 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Right. 

00:35:41 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, is awkward. 

00:35:42 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

It really is to support that pool in the team in coaching so they get that feeling of ownership of being able. 

00:35:52 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

To improve for themselves, and of course everybody needs support sometimes. But you know, we should make sure that by giving support, people don't stop trying to work for themselves. 

00:36:05 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. And then I think to add on that to to round off is that is why do you want that because we live in a fast changing environment, often a fast changing world. You want to be adaptable, you want to be agile and therefore you cannot dictate. 

00:36:13 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. 

00:36:25 Maaike Klasen 

You need to collaborate. You need to communicate from a product on a point of view to a team. The team comes with the skills the product owner comes with. The value estimation or like he has the that part and you both talk about, OK, what's next in this Sprint? 

00:36:41 Maaike Klasen 

So it is about that interaction. 

00:36:45 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah. Yeah, because we did. Didn't talk about that. But the whole reason to have a team is because you have problems that an individual can solve on their own, right. So you need to make sure that the team also works in a way that you can solve those complex problems, basically, and that that's the whole reason we want self. 

00:37:05 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Organization we see benefits of Agile and Scrum and stuff, so that's a really nice way to close it off I think. 

00:37:10 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:37:13 Maaike Klasen 

Yes. 

00:37:14 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Thank you very much for this nice conversation. 

00:37:16 Maaike Klasen 

Thank you too. 

00:37:18 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Do you have any current books or blogs you want to recommend to people that you maybe read recently or an article for your your current education? Maybe you read something that you say Oh well, this is also. 

00:37:26 Maaike Klasen 

Well. 

00:37:31 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

If. 

00:37:32 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Your scrum Moss or coach? 

00:37:34 Maaike Klasen 

Well, I'm very intrigued by it. It's Dutch, though it's picky, Dida finicky. Kramer. 

00:37:41 

Hmm. 

00:37:42 Maaike Klasen 

She's framing the world that we are living in. So yeah, that I would really recommend to read. 

00:37:47 

Hmm. 

00:37:52 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes, for the Dutch listeners, Yitzchak Kammer tricky title. 

00:37:55 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, sure. I should have prepared this. 

00:38:03 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

If if if it pops up later, there's always the show notes where we can put links in and we will also link to your profile if people think, oh, that was a really nice conversation with Mike. I also have something I want to discuss and maybe she can help our team or something. I'll put your LinkedIn profile in. So if you have any anything that pops up, I can still edit. 

00:38:04 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:38:18 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:38:19 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, right. 

00:38:23 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah. 

00:38:24 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

I will add that Yitzchak camera book and yeah, I really enjoyed the conversation. I hope it's helpful for people. It was helpful for me at least. 

00:38:33 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And I hope to see. 

00:38:33 Maaike Klasen 

I have one more book, actually it's from it's also Dutch. It's from Francisco. Adolfo today. Yeah. Yes, all about setting goals and how to guide your team through. 

00:38:34 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

You then yes, yes. 

00:38:41 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Oh yes, I love this guy. 

00:38:48 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yeah, very nice structure. So for people who find it difficult to structure their team coaching approach. 

00:38:49 Maaike Klasen 

The calls, yeah. 

00:38:51 

Yeah. 

00:38:58 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

And this is really helpful also contracting everything, yes. 

00:39:00 Maaike Klasen 

Very. 

00:39:02 Maaike Klasen 

Yeah, it it creates the frame for coaching. 

00:39:05 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Exactly. Agile teams shudan Francisco dastra. I hope they those books will eventually be translated to English so everyone can enjoy them, but for now, for the Dutch audience, here are two great books to read and apply, let's say. 

00:39:06 

Yeah. 

00:39:08 Maaike Klasen 

Yes. 

00:39:21 

Yeah. 

00:39:21 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

For it. And yeah, I hope we can continue this conversation some other time because I feel like there's a lot of more, a lot more potential in this emotional field we have here. 

00:39:22 

Yeah. 

00:39:31 Maaike Klasen 

There you go. I feel so too. That's that's the power, right? Yeah. Yeah. Thank you too. 

00:39:36 Sjoerd Kranendonk 

Yes. So thank you and. 

00:39:40 Steve Trapps 

See you soon. 

00:39:43 Steve Trapps 

Thank you for listening to the scrum Facilitators Community podcast. The place for real conversations around Scrum. Do you have a story to share in this podcast? Get in touch with us at podcast at scrumfacilitators.com.