Non-technical Scrum Master - Rebecca Dainton

In the renewed Scrum Facilitators community podcast we talk about Scrum with practitioners in the community.

In this episode Steve Trapps is talking to Rebecca Dainton about her experiences as a non-technical Scrum Master for IT teams.

I guess you really need to read Radical Candor since it's the second time it popped up in conversation in the podcast!

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Transcript

Steve Trapps: 0:06

Welcome to the scrum facilitators community podcast, the place for real conversations around Scrum. Welcome to the scrum facilitators community podcast. You're joining myself, Steve traps. And Rebecca Dainton. This week. A little bit of thank you for joining us. Firstly, for coming back. We're going to be talking about various different things over the next 20 minutes. 30 minutes see where we get to, just for full transparency. Just so, you know, dear listener, I've worked with Rebecca. In my past we met a few years ago, we've also met at user groups in and around Yorkshire, where we both live. And also Rebecca's attended a few of the courses that we've thrown out there as well. So now Rebecca comes from Yorkshire. She is a in a title, she is a modern product development champion and coach. I mean, what does that mean, Rebecca? Firstly, welcome, welcome. What does that mean?

Rebecca Dainton: 1:12

What does it mean? I think that's me trying to make sense of what Scrum Master is, because no one seems to know, oh, my God, who never understands what I do when I tell him the scrum master anymore. But yeah, I think it's just a lot more than Scrum. For me, it's, I guess, the whole package that comes with like modern product development. So looking at things like how like organizations are set up, traditionally, and how we can move to things like cross functional teams, or more modern ways of thinking and working and I guess, giving them teams complete autonomy as well, rather than, like old school ways of working and taylorism. And, like scientific management method, and all that sort of stuff, where it was very much, you know, the people do the work and the managers and you're completely as far apart as possible. So it's about Yeah, all the different modern aspects of product development, and yeah, rolling them into one and then hopefully, teaching and coaching it.

Steve Trapps: 2:08

Brilliant. And, by the way, I love the word champion, because I do see you as a champion. For this. It's like it's pushing it forward and championing how to do things. I say properly, professionally, let's call it professionally how to do things professionally, in because it is quite complex. Now, we always start off with a couple of questions. And how would your friends describe you in two sentences? And what do you most? Or what do you love most about your job?

Rebecca Dainton: 2:36

So I primed me for a couple of days. So yesterday, I was thinking about two sentences that my friends will say about me, and I could not think of anything. It was really hard. It's really hard to think think think of, so I cheated. And then I texted a couple of WhatsApp group. So I've written down a couple of welfare responses that I got back from my friends, which are actually quite fun. It's something you never do, I guess, ask your friends what they think of you. So it was quite interesting. So I've got hugely determined and ambitious first, absolutely someone you can share the funniest moments with proper hilarious, you could all Yorkshire terms, and would be there in a dash if needed. With a touch of crazy. We've got pure heart, never any bullshit. A lovely girl, but around how to you in the head. If you're an EIder do do martial arts. I don't just go around kicking people in the head, by the way, and enthusiastic about the finer things in life food, drinks, spas, and facials because I do love a good facial. So they were the responses, the actual responses. And the love most about my job was much easier. So for me, it's it's the continuous learning that comes with being a scrum master. I've been in the Agile coaching world. So you Yeah, I just think you're always kind of looking for new things to learn. Obviously, you need to know about lots of different frameworks, lots of different kinds of histories in terms of agile and product development. And you need to learn, you need to kind of learn how different organizations work, how different people build products. It's that continuous learning thing for me, there's always something to learn, like, every week, every month, which I just think is nice. It keeps your brain ticking. So that's the thing for me the learning stuff.

Steve Trapps: 4:28

Yeah, definitely gives you that enthusiasm for life and to continue to learning and brilliant. So Rebecca, you're able to say where you're currently working at the moment?

Rebecca Dainton: 4:40

I am. Yes, I think I'm working at purpose as part of flutter entertainment. So yeah, we're online spotting gaming betting, and I'm working at bookstores, but actually in the sports tribe. So developing a sports book product for the moment,

Steve Trapps: 4:57

and you're working there as an Agile coach or scrum master or

Rebecca Dainton: 5:01

scrum master, but I kind of see them as the same thing. So I think it's a much larger coach kind of same thing. But yeah, I'm a officially scrum master working with two squads. Yeah, sports tribe.

Steve Trapps: 5:15

Brilliant. So what would you say the biggest challenge? What's the biggest challenge you've got in your

Rebecca Dainton: 5:17

So I think for me, the biggest challenge in my role at the moment. role, and I guess it spans into any organization or any role, within like, like the Scrum and Agile world for me is not coming, I guess from a technical background. So I guess I started off in traditional project management originally came from the waterfall world. And then, you know, fell in love with Scrum and realized it was the only way really to build products properly, for customers. And, obviously, I'm now working with software engineers. So we can, we can work in any domain within Scrum and Agile Academy. But I've chosen Tech because I think it's really fun. I really like it. And what for me, I don't have that kind of engineering background, that programming background. So sometimes it can be a challenge. And I think it's, it's not that you cannot be a scrum master Agile Coach without, you know, ever been a programmer. But I think sometimes if you want him to coach them, or technical kind of practices stuff, it can be a challenge, because you've not been there, you've not done it. But I'm a massive advocate for good technical practices. And I don't think you can really get that true agility without them.

Steve Trapps: 6:32

So what have you seen work? I mean, you've come from a non technical background non development. And obviously, well not obviously, but majority of things are being done in a technical and, you know, what, what have you seen work for you and with the teams to win over trust to actually help teams what's been successful for you.

Rebecca Dainton: 6:52

So I think in a way, it's also a blessing not being technical, because you can, you know you don't get into the detail you don't try and solution eyes for the team. You don't try and tell the team how to kind of work technically, which is nice, because you want them to be autonomous and do things for yourself. So it's, it's great. And, you know, you see the high level, you see the big picture. And you can coach on so you know, so much of the other stuff that that is your speciality. So, you know delivery, cross functional teams, organizational structures, all that stuff. And I think you can, so, the way I've kind of overcome the challenge, I guess, is I still like to delve into the technical side of things a lot. So, for example, I did an online Code

Academy, course: 7:36

full stack engineer, it was really tough. I didn't complete it. I'm not gonna lie. It wasn't my thing. But I wrote some code. I did some JavaScript, some JS-node, I created a very simple website, I got my head around it. And it gave me a massive, like perspective shift on what, you know, programmers face every day. I get involved in like technical articles on LinkedIn, and kind of ask questions and speak to like, the engineers and everything on my team. And shadow people and pair with people are more technical. So

Steve Trapps: 8:08

what was the response like from the team, your or the people you're working with? When they found out that? Firstly, firstly, you didn't have that technical knowledge? And then secondly, that you actually were trying to gain it? What was their response? Like, once they found that out? Or do they actually know this? And this is, this is a world exclusive that we're breaking,

Rebecca Dainton: 8:29

I just tell them all, I'm a software engineer, and they've got no idea. No, they do know, I guess they know. So they're not they're not bothered at the end of the day, because, you know, they know, hopefully, I'm there to do a good job. We're all there to kind of create good products. And, you know, we all work together as a team. And obviously, some people have got strengths and gaps within that team. Now, that goes for anyone software engineers Scrum Master, you know, product manager, whatever it like. So, I think the main thing is like, you don't want to pretend to be a techie. So you know, if I think to myself, this team could really benefit from some pair programming or something like that. I'll kind of talk to like when their senior engineers and say, Look, this is what I'm thinking we should collaborate more like, what you recon to pair programming and get them on side. And we'll kind of work with the team together. So we've got some more technical who's actually done it as well, kind of advocating that way of working. So yeah, so I don't think it's I don't think it's a big deal at all. I think it's just something I find a little bit more challenging when I'm trying to coach now I can see a technical practice will help. But I've not actually done it myself. So it's like right, who kind of get on my side who would run owes got that, that skill, and then we'll work together to get the team where they need to be.

Steve Trapps: 9:41

This was something that you felt you need to do to go get those technical skills and looking back on it now. How, how valuable was it for you to do that?

Rebecca Dainton: 9:50

It's been really valuable for me, just from the point of understanding what the engineers are actually up to and how I suppose it's things like that. When the you know, if you miss a comma of a line of code that the program is not going to work, you know, it's that specific. And I don't think you realize that until you've actually tried it yourself. And now I understand why engineers will sit there with headphones in and say, Don't talk to me for two hours, or is it? I tried it, you've got no idea. So it's been nice to get that perspective. It's nice to join in on the conversations, and I do understand a lot of what's going on, obviously, not to level their do. And it's been really beneficial for me. You don't need to do it, though. Like people can be great Scrum Masters and agile coaches without without kind of doing what I've done. But for me, I would recommend it if you're gonna stay in kind of the software and tech world, which I'll probably plan on doing. I really like it. Yeah, it's helped me a lot.

Steve Trapps: 10:42

Yeah. Well, somebody that came from a software background and shifted across to being a scrum master, and trainer, it's, yeah, I really appreciate the fact that you've got out there and learn how difficult it actually is. And it's one of the reasons why I stopped doing it. I just couldn't keep up with the various different JavaScript, j node and all those kinds of stuff, just continually learning. You know, it's just incredibly difficult, incredibly difficult. So what have you been doing to keep your skills and keep your appetite going? Outside of the technical technology aspects? Have you been doing anything to improve your coaching skills, your agile appreciation? I think, what we've been up to

Rebecca Dainton: 11:24

Yeah, so try and do try and look at kind of like different frameworks and ways of working and try and go get a call soon with the recommended or an expert every kind of six months really, just to keep kind of the learning up. I was lucky enough, kind of the last place I worked at Yorks. Water, I got kind of went through the scrum.org world. As you'll know, Steven did like my PSM products owners and got to PSM I / II and Product Owner and stuff. And then yeah, since kind of post as I've been looking at, so I went into the Kanban course with the Kanban University, and actually a couple of weeks ago, and I've been wanting to do this for ages, but I went on the large scale scrum course. And that was Celeste, and that was in person in Manchester. So I've not done anything in person for ages. And that was with the co founder as well. Bass Vodde. So really insightful, like Bass. Just, yeah, incredibly knowledgeable, intelligent guy. And it was a three day course, forgot that you actually got fed at courses as well, because I've done things on. It was nice to get a nice dinner and do some networking. But yeah, so did that really, really enjoyed that got a lot from that. And also, we kind of established a community of practice, as well, as always kind of learning from fellow colleagues and things as part of that community of practice, and then bringing in external speakers as well to speak to us. So we've, we've had someone in talking about liberating structures. got people coming in, yeah, just getting, I guess, getting learning wherever I can.

Steve Trapps: 13:06

Brilliant. The liberating structures we use a lot of and they're really useful. So if you haven't had an opportunity to, to explore liberating structures, I'd encourage you to do so there I use them in retrospectives and workshops all over, really. So it's just a great way of getting individual thinking out into the group. So where do you want to go next, where you know, what's what's calling you next, where's the fire for you what you're doing.

Rebecca Dainton: 13:29

So I think next, well, I'm expecting a baby of so I've got three months left, I'll be having to take a year off on maternity leave, and enjoying some time with the newest member of the family, which will be amazing and tiring. And then after that, probably carry on doing what I'm doing for a little bit while I get used to having no sleep again. But I'd like to, I'd like to get into maybe a more kind of agile coaching role that may be more organizational level. So I'm currently working more at team level at the moment at Box Stars. Or maybe something like head of delivery, something like that, where I can basically I've done this, obviously, less cars, I am interested in kind of larger product development and scale product development, it'd be great to be in a position where I can kind of share that myself. Because I've got some really good ideas and I'm pretty ambitious about all that stuff.

Steve Trapps: 14:26

Like what you've you've intrigued me what is your good ideas?

Rebecca Dainton: 14:29

So a lot of a lot of it comes from less, you know, but they kind of backed up my ideas, I suppose. But just like just the way kind of organization is set up and you still kind of see a lot of kinda like component team tribes and all that sort of stuff, do it. So I'd love to get all the product and I really like to call it flipping in less but really just shake up the organizational structure, get people really working cross functional teams and get people delivering that like product increment every two weeks or whatever we say about at scale and I've done it team level, I've been fortunate to work on some really good cross functional teams, and I've seen it, you know, really work. And I think it just tends to get lost at scale. So I'd love to be able to influence some of that. So yeah.

Steve Trapps: 15:15

So what tips I mean, you've said, You've done it at team level in the cross having cross functional, what tips could you share? That would, that you've picked up over the years that actually help it work at a team level, you know, having cross functional and having a deliverable increment, every sprint, every iteration?

Rebecca Dainton: 15:33

I think it's about starting small and really. So start small think of a feature or you know, that turns up in your product is, if it's a big product, think of a feature, if it's small product might be enough for that one team up. And just start small. So start off by looking at that feature or product and say, right, who do we actually need to get this thing delivered? And, you know, literally, pull them out of the functional areas and have those conversations with managers. Probably a lot of persuading, and explaining depending on where you work. But yeah, if you can just start to call one, one team who can get something to done, and then just watch the market work. And a lot of places just just just follow that cross functional team part really difficult to break down the structure of these functional kinds of silos they've got. But it's actually quite simple to do if you just start off small and then see it work. And then you know, once it's working, yeah, move on to your next team.

Steve Trapps: 16:34

Brilliant. So yeah, so start small. Keep keep going.

Rebecca Dainton: 16:39

Yeah, yeah, do not try and do everything at once. You know, don't try and grab 10 teams and turn everyone into a scrum you know, a monster at once. I think that small, get things going and get things working. Experiment, and then yeah, and then move on.

Steve Trapps: 16:55

What's what's what are the things you wish you'd known earlier in your career?

Rebecca Dainton: 17:04

I think probably it's probably don't need to know everything, I think, I think maybe pre Scrum, even as a project manager. And yeah, I think the way I was maybe brought up or like, you know, maybe, maybe had a bit of that perfectionism kind of mind going on and thinking, you know, you've got to know everything. And then as I've got older and worked in different organizations, and different people products, you realize, you really do and it's absolutely fine to not have a clue. And just to be really honest, and say I've got no idea. And I think, yeah, known that earlier, it probably saved a lot of stress. Whereas now that mindset shift, totally shifted. For me, I understand this. It's fine not to know. And it's fine to ask people for help, and maybe something along those lines.

Steve Trapps: 17:54

So have that confidence to just that, hey, it's fine. We'll work this out as we go through. Yeah, absolutely. And what do you think, helped you see that through?

Rebecca Dainton: 18:07

I'm trying to think really, I don't know if he's just life life experience, really? And then I guess. So I suppose the way some companies our you know, moving and working. So when we do talk about Agile and Scrum, I think that kind of mindset does fit into those frameworks, it's, you know, it's not about perfectionism as it is about, you know, being vulnerable, you know, you know, being courageous, you know, accepting that you're gonna fail and learn. And so I think it's a bit of life experience, then also the path that I've chosen as well, down these kind of agile rules, it kind of fits with that. And that's the kind of the way working we're trying to cultivate. So that's probably rubbed off on me, and hopefully, I'm rubbing back off on that.

Steve Trapps: 18:52

So we were asked a question in the previous podcast, and it was, when was the last time you did something for the first time and what was it?

Rebecca Dainton: 19:02

So this was easy, just because it's a super exciting thing, but we were just back from Lanza Rotte. Last week, so the first time we went to Lanza Rotte as a family we've never been okay, so yeah, so I'm going down the angle so yeah, it was really nice, lovely and warm. I'd highly recommend it for anyone wanting to match it as much so yeah, so it was Lanza Rotte and there's time for us.

Steve Trapps: 19:31

So you basically you're making everybody envious of going on holiday so it's the going away on holiday for maybe the first time for a long time.

Rebecca Dainton: 19:41

It's got to be booked, although Manchester Airport oef. I was gonna go from a different airport.

Steve Trapps: 19:53

So what question would you like to pose for the next person coming up onto the podcast?

Rebecca Dainton: 20:00

So I would like them to answer if you could fall asleep on a night. You could be programmed with one skill and wake up the next day and you had that skill and you were proficient at it. What skill would it be? And you had it for life

Steve Trapps: 20:16

then. Okay, brilliant. Well, I look forward to the person's answer to that one coming up. So do you have as we come rapidly towards the end? Do you have an article or a book you would recommend to people listening to this podcast?

Rebecca Dainton: 20:33

Yes, I was looking on my bookshelf. And so a book I've recently read radical candor by Kim Scott, really, really liked it. I don't know if you've read it. Have you read it Steve?

Steve Trapps: 20:45

No, I haven't. But it's on my bookshelf, I really should read it

Rebecca Dainton: 20:49

really good one, I really enjoyed it. Just good for, I guess, learning how to give, like feedback that's going to benefit someone and help someone and not kind of shy away, given given feedback that's going to be helpful and constructive. But some really good like models of how to do that and an interesting concepts and ideas. So yeah, I recommend it.

Steve Trapps: 21:13

And if you've been using those concepts and ideas in work, or is it just, Oh, I could use this in the future or

Rebecca Dainton: 21:19

Work, and I've used them outside of work as well. Actually, I've noticed myself kind of using a little bit more and not feeling, you know, guilty about giving feedback or Yeah, thinking I'm doing this because it's gonna help this person. And I'm gonna say basically, so yeah, it's definitely helped. definitely helped kind of reframe, giving feedback for me.

Steve Trapps: 21:40

Brilliant. So that was radical candor,

Rebecca Dainton: 21:41

radical candor, by Kim Scott. Yeah.

Steve Trapps: 21:45

Brilliant. Okay, cool. So and do you have any if, actually, if people want to learn more about you, is there a place they can go to? Do you have a website? Do you have you know, how can people find out more about Rebecca Dainton?

Rebecca Dainton: 22:00

Probably LinkedIn is the main place I seem to pop up. Yeah. Grab me on there. You'll find me on. I do the odd kind of YouTube. Short video, but it's not done any fridge and actually, yeah, you channel I think, I think was called Candida jail. Just trying to like Frank, advise about agile, but yeah, mainly LinkedIn grabbed me on LinkedIn. That's

Steve Trapps: 22:23

brilliant. And are you doing any talks or anything like that? Or meetups or anything that we could come and listen to you about radical candor, and you can give us positive feedback.

Rebecca Dainton: 22:34

I've got one more podcasting. Actually, I've never, I don't think I've ever done an audio podcast. But I've got two that have come along like bosses. I've got one more next week. With the retro retro retro grind, Kristen. So that's, yeah, I'm doing it next week. I'm not sure when that will be published. But it will be published at some point. But no other than that, I'll probably be winding down soon for it for a year off.

Steve Trapps: 23:00

You've got other things you need to focus on. Other Other important things to focus on? Absolutely. Yeah. Brilliant. Well, thank you for joining us today. Good luck with what's coming up next. So thank you for joining us, Rebecca. And for those people that do want to find Rebecca, learn more about Rebecca, she says find her on LinkedIn. Rebecca Dainton. She's got lots of ideas, lots of things she'll share with you and the podcasts and the YouTube clips. So please go find Rebecca Dainton. And also, thank you listener, thank you for listening to us and coming back after a short interview and mine and please stick with us. These are going to become a lot more regular than I have done in the past. So thank you for coming back to and listening to the scrum facilitators community podcast. Speak to you again soon. Thank you for listening to the scrum facilitators community Podcast the place for real conversations around Scrum. Do you have a story to share in this podcast? Get in touch with us at podcast@scrumfacilitators.com